This log has been roughly split into several sections. Comments are best put in the forum thread or on the wiki subpage comments? :)
If you have a test idea, the best places to put it are:
If you just have fragments of an idea, put them on the Worship Idea Fragments page - we may be able to put some of them into the final Test :)
Should be a factor:
Should not be a factor:
FaceAnkh: WORSHIP: after the Isis festival (which is in about 2hrs), we're going to have a discussion here on E! about the Worship Discipline, with a view to clarifying what people think should be in a monument test, which test it should replace, and to hopefully stimulate a few new test ideas
FaceAnkh: the plan is to mostly keep to generalities for this talk and to discuss specific test proposals next weekend, after everyone has had some time to think :)
FaceAnkh: all welcome to join in (we're expecting myself, JemGirl, Balth, Hellinar, Esme to be here at the least) by coming to the mic or sending comments remotely :)
FaceAnkh: that'll be happening after the festival, so in probably about 3hrs time :)
FaceAnkh: -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
FaceAnkh: /me watches the time to make sure he's at least 1 min late, in case of damaging his reputation
Esme: :/me rolls her eyes at that ;p
FaceAnkh: /me makes noises like he's running up to the mic late
FaceAnkh: -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
FaceAnkh: belated hello Egypt :)
FaceAnkh: there's a couple of us here to talk about the worship monument and the new test that'll be part of it :)
FaceAnkh: we're just going to try and stick mostly to generalities today - the idea is to nudge anyone out there with a half-formed idea to post it up :)
FaceAnkh: we'll hold another talk next weekend to discuss specific test proposals and set about choosing one :)
FaceAnkh: we have here Hellinar, Esme, Shani (the granddaughter of the T1 Worship Monument Oracle)
FaceAnkh: there's also some others listening out there, hopefully including Jem (who's working on a quarry with the radio on) and Cappu - Jem can post remote comments for us, so feel free to say something :)
FaceAnkh: so to start with, I was going to just say what a monument is for and what we can expect to get from Pharaoh if we complete it :)
FaceAnkh: then, I'm hoping Shani can tell us a little about how it went in T1 :)
FaceAnkh: after that, we were going to skim over the existing tests, see if we can pick out what worship should be about and mention any elements that we'd especially like to see in the next test :)
FaceAnkh: so, what is a monument for? :)
FaceAnkh: those who weren't in T1 may not have come across them yet :)
FaceAnkh: one of the stated aims of the game is to prove Egypt has a perfect society by demonstrating our perfection in the 7 Disciplines of Man
FaceAnkh: to do this, we must gather together enough people to build a monument to each Discipline
FaceAnkh: (it takes 1 Oracle, 2 Sages, 4 Masters, etc - but anyone can fill a rank below theirs)
FaceAnkh: the monument itself holds the text of a new Test for the next generation - we set one of the Tests our grandchildren will have to pass in order to prove their own perfect society :)
FaceAnkh: the nice thing about that is that it lets us influence the Discipline in the direction we feel it should go - not necessarily the way Pharaoh thinks :)
FaceAnkh: so, one of our tasks is to come up with a Test that we feel embodies the Discipline :)
FaceAnkh: as there can only be 7 Tests in a Discipline, this also means we can hint to Teppy which one (or perhaps which ones) should be removed
FaceAnkh: in T3, the Test of Marriage is moving to the Harmony Discipline, which leaves a gap
FaceAnkh: however, if we feel we'd like to replace another Test, we may be able to convince Teppy to do that - especially if we come up with a Test that obviously replaces another (he'll just have to code two then ;) )
Shani: Well he might bring back Visions
FaceAnkh: Al-Bilal points out we may be able to make more than one monument - if so, I believe Teppy is required to code both Tests embodied in them :)
FaceAnkh: true :) Visions was quite a fun one too :)
FaceAnkh: (17% on Isis festival btw)
FaceAnkh: Shani: perhaps you could tell us a little about how the T1 Worship monument picked a Test and what happened to it in the process of turning into a coded test? :)
Shani: Sure :)
Shani: Well first of all we actually had a guild and discussions about possible tests before the Monument was ever started :)
Shani: People were encuraged to join to give their opinions about what the test should be like, even if they didn't have an idea for a test themselves
Shani: Lots of ideas were submitted to the forums and the wiki and much discussion went on in and out of game
FaceAnkh: (/info Worship Monument Coordination - the T2 equivalent) :)
Shani: The things we mostly decided were what we liked and disliked in the tests we had, what we thought of as "important" parts of a Worship test and what we really didn't want in one
Shani: We ended up with a shortlist of about 3 tests i think after a lot of discussion and tweaking and these were put to the vote
Shani: Certain things were checked with Teppy beforehand, like wether he was willing to code new emotes etc :)
Shani: This was part of the chat that all the Oracles got with Teppy towards the end :)
Shani: But there are things that he WILL tweak if you don't pin him down :P
Shani: and that means getting him to agree that something will be a certain way or not, just having it in the text etc won't do
FaceAnkh: I remember him talking about tests at the Pittsburgh post-T1 meet where we talked about the new tests - he definitely needed pinning down ;)
JemGirl: but also at the meet he was talking but we really didn't input much
Shani: I couldn't get to the meet so didn't really have a chance to input ;)
FaceAnkh: I think it helped when he was given the wiki pages describing the tests too :)
FaceAnkh: I know that he also contacted the Oracles personally later, though I don't know how well that worked? :)
FaceAnkh: (for anyone that doesn't know, Shani's monument test was Humble Priests)
JemGirl: seemed he had his own ideas
FaceAnkh: he certainly wanted to put his stamp on them all - things like tweaking the numbers in Test of Host :)
FaceAnkh: I think if one is careful to pin down the things we really need and leave open options that won't cause harm to the essence of the test, we should be ok..
FaceAnkh: fwiw, I'm hoping to go along to the post-T2 meet, so I'll let people know how it goes ;)
Amtep: I think this means we need to concentrate on the core concept of the test we want, and spell those out very clearly, and not rely too much on the details of the test.
JemGirl: will try to go to
FaceAnkh: (from a side comment, the Holy Shrine test came from the Kemet/German T1 server monument)
This bit doesn't break up very well, but covers elements of the Worship discipline, what people like and don't like about existing tests and some ideas that might go into a new test.
FaceAnkh: I'd also agree with Amtep - we should do what they did in T1 and try to define what we're looking for in a Worship Test, then try to make sure we have that built into the structure of the new test :)
Cappu: Where do we post ideas for new tests?
FaceAnkh: the best places for new test ideas are either the forums (www.atitd.net -> forum -> tests)
FaceAnkh: or the wiki at http://wiki.atitd.net/tale2/Monument_Tests
Shani: Things we discussed were, size of group, wether we wanted a limited pass tests or not, co-operation being very important to the essence of a "worship" test etc
FaceAnkh: forums are probably better for discussion and wiki for explanations, but we'll read them all anyway :)
Shani: The basics of what we felt were important
Shani: Fun was also a very important factor in the kind of test we were looking for
Amtep: One thing I like in a test is the ability to make gradual progress in it, rather than a burst of activity that is either rewarded or not. So more like Beacons than like Vigil :)
FaceAnkh: perhaps people would like to say the things they've enjoyed in the existing tests too :)
Hellinar: It strikes me that that there may be several test ideas that highlight different things people like about tests. One test may cover them all.
TheMazeEcho: I like the Hly Shrine for the same reason as Amtep
FaceAnkh: I've enjoyed helping other people pass too - things like supporting festivals or helping friends with Holy Shrine :)
Cappu: On the other hand, Vigil and Pilgrim was two tests I enjoyed tremendously
TheMazeEcho: Festivals is fun too, but I find Humble Priest not very appealing
FaceAnkh: I also rather liked being able to help out in Humble Priests (my mule Sejdemash is an easy priest) :)
Hellinar: I like the tests with clear goals.. 100% in Isis for example..and the pass per week ones too
blondie: humble priests has a nice reward after passing, though--and you can bless others-- you can do the ritual even after you pass
FaceAnkh: perhaps we should also add things we didn't like about some tests too :)
MarvL: Pilgrimage needs some serious attention - it's withering because so few people are participating.
JemGirl: Festivals due to its unfriendly time factor needs to be changed
Cappu: I don't like festivals because of the timezone thing, and the "you are dammed if you miss the all-important big Maat/Ra/etc festival)
Shani: I just don't think that limited pass tests mesh well with the co-operative nature of the Worship discipline
FaceAnkh: I'd agree the timezone oriented things are probably bad - they seem counter to the spirit of Worship in some ways (bringing groups together to help one another)
Shani: Although in practice the number of people that pass (because of group participation) means that limted passes matter less as the tale moves on. But it might matter more in a much shorter tale
Al-Bilal: I agree with shani, limited pass tests aren't really worship-y
Esme: I think a worship test should be fun, cooperative more than competitive, introduce one or two new things to the game, not time zone based to cooperate, have ritual and beauty and simplicity in it somehow, it should be beneficial to help others in some way, it should be enjoyable even if you don't pass, it shouldnt be limited pass in worship
FaceAnkh: I'd probably expect the next telling to be shorter (though I'm not going to make a prediction ;) ) - there's supposed to be less waiting for Teppy to trigger stuff
blondie: but the time zone is set by people who coordinate tests
FaceAnkh: ritual sounds like a fairly key element to me too :)
Al-Bilal: I'd like to see the Egyptian gods play more of a part, if only in name. It is called Worship...
FaceAnkh: I know Shani wanted to avoid limited-pass and introduce more ritual-like elements with humble priests (and got us all the new emotes to play with) :)
Amtep: I think the only way to solve the time zone problem is to have a test that requires smaller groups. If we had 10000 people instead of 1000, we could also have had 100% festivals for every timezone :)
Shani: I also wanted Temples, but Teppy didn't go for it :P
Hellinar: I'm a big fan of the ritual element.. it seems right for Worship
FaceAnkh: Amtep: another solution might be to broaden the timescales - for example, if festivals counted sacrifices over a day or a week (possibly increasing the effort required to offset the reduced timezone problem), that would also work for everyone :)
Al-Bilal: hehe, tie in funerary temples somehow...choose a high priest for winning temples :)
Shani: Yes that would be much better
Cappu: Vigil is an example of a test that does not hinder timezone-challenged people, yet can be done in large groups
blondie: i agree with face on the extension of time on festival--though, teppy might counter with making the reqs harder :P
Shani: Even if it counted over 12 hours or something it would help a lot
Shani: We'd see for example lots of smaller scale festivals counting towards the whole
FaceAnkh: it'd be rather nice to do something like devotions at sunset for that one, perhaps :)
Cappu: What I really like in worship is the long and involved rituals, involving many custom-made items (incense, perfume, beer, etc).
Balthazarr: Hello... As much as I like the festivals, I hate when a Real World conflict comes up and prevents me from logging on :(
Hellinar: One possibility it make the test score linked to the server population.. that way, finding people is tougher in some time zones, but you need to do it less often
TheMazeEcho: /me wants to do a Key West-like devotion :)
FaceAnkh: some of the existing tests have a fair bit of ritual in them - mostly altar based :)
FaceAnkh: probably the least ritual-oriented ones are pilgrim and (sort of) marriage
FaceAnkh: marriage tends to be what you make it though :)
Balthazarr: Having a test that can be done over time, like for instance only performed once a game month, might be nice to not have a one day an done style test, like some of the worship tests have become
Hellinar: I'd agree that a set of smaller rituals that add up is the way to go.. makes for less problems for those with limited time
FaceAnkh: nod, some of the tests are very time-intensive - generally in long bursts too
TheMazeEcho: Esme is a great wedding Priestess :)
Hellinar: I would also like to see a minimum time over which you can pass the Test. That way you don't get some people completing it in a couple of weeks, and dropping out from that test
FaceAnkh: I remember Hellinar saying that Worship involves a lot of waiting - might just be because he's waiting for me though ;)
Hellinar: :)
Balthazarr: possibly a test that involves a series of rituals, like you first test for what you need to prepare for the REAL ritual and possibly a loctaion that the ritual could be preformed at
FaceAnkh: lets try to summarise up a few things that belong in a worship test (since we're doing that anyway) :)
FaceAnkh: I'm seeing things like: must have rituals, should be group oriented (and non-competitive?), definitely not timezone oriented
FaceAnkh: for me, one of the big things about Worship is that it's groups helping one another to mutual benefit
FaceAnkh: in constrast to, say, Leadership, which is more about people helping one person to no personal benefit
Esme: worship shouldnt be a selfish act at all...should be a good thing to help others thru
Balthazarr: If I may... a nice balance between taking too long (Festivals) and being a one day test (Vigil or Pilgrim)
FaceAnkh: or Architecture, which is about building stuff, possibly in groups, but focussed on the building and contracting side
Amtep: Hmm maybe I should write up the Test of Human Sacrifice after all.
Esme: Amtep can be the first test of that one ;p
FaceAnkh: I guess we should also consider the sorts of things we might want to see in the new test too, in terms of what Teppy will and won't do :)
FaceAnkh: he's said in the past that new art is ok, within limits, and he did some new emotes for Humble Priests too
Amtep: Worship tests also tend to be passed in groups, leading to a... suffusion of oracles :) Does it make sense to design a really challenging test to compensate?
Balthazarr: It might be nice to have a test that does let you choose your partners... as in the first ritual would tell you what god you needed to please for the next ritual, and the person that you tested with might get a differant god to please.
FaceAnkh: we also have had new, complex resources added (moss & incense) to support rituals (though they turned out a bit harder than originally hoped for, perhaps)
Balthazarr: ops does NOT let you choose your partners
FaceAnkh: Amtep: I remember something Hellinar said about that - he said that the ideal outcome for the Worship Discipline, in his view, would be for everyone to be an oracle ;)
JemGirl: What if we had a rutual that started with one person than goes to a chin of rituals and you must do thsi with the partner with same ritual for about so many people
FaceAnkh: Balth: that's an interesting idea, as long as it's open enough that you don't get stuck with someone living in an opposite timezone :)
Calixes: (or stuck with someone who quits)
Amtep: Humble Priests fits Balthazarr's idea :) Beacons was intended the same way too, that you have to do the ritual with strangers. But this telling it was easier to go beacon hunting with friends :)
Balthazarr: Well my idea would be based on the game month... each month at the beginning you whould do the first ritual to determine your GOD, not a specific player
FaceAnkh: Balth: sounds like you have something to add to the wiki/forums there :)
FaceAnkh: lets try not to get too specific yet - we have plenty of time to choose :)
FaceAnkh: I was thinking it might be nice to try and highlight a test (or two) that we'd like to remove
Balthazarr: If have no issue with a bunch of REAL friends working a test together, but some of the Humble Priests and Holy Shrine groups were one or two people being able to log on sevral accounts at the same time
FaceAnkh: though that may also be too specific - it probably depends on the test we choose and how it overlaps with the existing ones
FaceAnkh: are there any strong opinions out there for which test we'd like to be rid of? :)
FaceAnkh: (Marriage is probably moving to the Harmony Discipline, so that's out already)
Balthazarr: a good example was Humble Priests, i passed that test the first weekend it was out by scambling to find people to do each of my gods with, not seeing how many accounts I could log in as
Esme: I think I really enjoyed all the tests in the worship discipline this telling but I sort of think we should never have a test be an expensive thing. Every new player should be able to just hop right into the worship discipline and start out withoutcost being a big factor.
FaceAnkh: Vigil was possibly the most expensive initially, then rapidly became the cheapest :)
Amtep: I don't think we can stop Teppy from making it expensive :) But we could design the test in a way that encourages people to supply the ingredients for others. That happens a lot with Festivals already.
Balthazarr: I for one am glad the marriage is moving out of worship, too many people did not take it seriously and it is by far the easiest test to PASS in the game
FaceAnkh: Teppy was pretty disappointed by that, I think ;) he's likely to keep it at 7 passes a week instead of 21 next telling
Cappu: I think festivals need to go. It's a test no latecomer can do... I joined this game about a year ago, and I'll just barely make it. This saddens me, for I like participating in festival, but there it is
Balthazarr: near to 500 people could have passed vigil before he dropped the pass rate to 7
Esme: I really felt that marriage shouldnt really be a test but a feature anyway. But if it is in worship it should have had more ritual and ceremony to it. I tried to add some impromptu at times by actually faciliating as priestess for it and adding some ceremony. But it really should hvae been buildt into the test.
HaxTut: true the marriage test is easiest to pass but it is also a landmark in human life according to society, therefore i feel that it should stay in worship
Cappu: I always felt that pass rates should reflect the available pool, not be an absolute
FaceAnkh: Cappu: festivals is probably the largest group oriented one - all the other worship tests are smaller
Hellinar: Perhaps we could design a new Test, and for bonus points, get Teppy to modify Festivals a bit
FaceAnkh: I'd suspect that if we want to replace festivals, we'd need to make something similarly large scale
Esme: Throwing two diamonds on an altar and meditating in front of a handful of people just wasnt enough ritual for a worship activity
Balthazarr: well teppy seems to be set on moving marriage to the new Harmony Disipline
Hellinar: we may well be able to do that too :)
sinless: virgil and pilgramage need mods also
FaceAnkh: sinless: could you expand on that?
Amtep: Maybe we could design a worship test around being a *priest* for a marriage :)
Cappu: If festivals could be changed so that it a) had a max % you could get in one festival and b) you got a bit more for a medium festival (say 20 people), that would be awsome. But now I'm about specifics :)
Esme: and I think barley is just a dumb reason to get married anyway lol
Amtep: that's a fun idea (and Esme will pass that one for sure) :)
Hax: I'm hoping that we manage to retain some of that feeling in the new Discipline too, though it's out of our control :)
sinless: minimum score to pass(both) and not needing the same group each run(pilgramage)
FaceAnkh: sinless: being able to switch groups sounds like a good idea :)
Balthazarr: Teppy did do that poll a while back about if people would like tests that have a set number of points to pass... vigil and pilgrimage are prime candidates for a point value passed pass rather than a limited number per week
Calixes: what about something based on how many times you do each test (for helping others, i mean)?
Cappu: calixes idea would be hard on late-comers
Esme: yes Calixes I obviously dont do beer :)
Calixes: hrm...that might be more in the new discipline.
Calixes: depends on how intense the reqs are, Cap. i can say i've been at a whole lot of HP ceremonies beyond what i needed to pass, for example, and i didn't start the telling.
HaxTut: remember guys: there's a lot of unknowns in the new tale :) don't get too far ahead of yourselves :)
Hellinar: For something like Vigil I would like to see minimum score that decays each week if not passed. i.e. this weeks score must be at least 80% of last weeks
FaceAnkh: I think Hax is probably right there - lets just concentrate on what we want to put into the new test and keep it true to Worship :)
FaceAnkh: I think we've also got some thinking going too, which is what this talk was about :)
FaceAnkh: perhaps everyone out there with ideas might like to think on them a little more, and post to the forum or wiki :)
FaceAnkh: I'll also post this log on the forums and wiki, and try to summarise it up :)
HaxTut: maybe we could start a designated wiki page for these or a forum thread, though i feel more people use wiki than forums
FaceAnkh: I'll make sure that both get read - and we'll probably want to talk about it all ingame too :)
FaceAnkh: if you don't have a fully formed idea, even little fragments would be great - it might all get put into the final test :)
HaxTut: are there any unused microphones?
FaceAnkh: possibly, but not sure where.. BBC is probably the best one to use for worship stuff
FaceAnkh: also, come join the worship guild - /info worship monument coordination
Balthazarr: there are several unsed microphones
HaxTut: possibly we could talk to them about converting it to a next-tale idea discussion
FaceAnkh: http://wiki.atitd.net/tale2/Monument_Tests seems the correct place on the wiki :)
FaceAnkh: or the Tests forum on www.atitd.net
Balthazarr: the advantage of E! is that it saves a log
FaceAnkh: that log is at http://www.atitd.net/home/index.php?categoryid=33 (or www.atitd.net -> logs -> E! )
Balthazarr: the advantage off the BBC is that only really worship stuff happens there
Balthazarr: and both E! and BBC have people controlling the message boards and can post peoples remarks from remote
FaceAnkh: I think we're done for now - Shani, Esme and Hellinar are looking a little like needing a rest :)
MarvL: Following up on the Marriage Priest idea - perhaps Marriage itself could be in Harmony, but GETTING married requires a Worship Priest
Balthazarr: some of the other mics are very idle, probably due to their location and the lack of messageboards
FaceAnkh: if you'd like to continue talking, by all means do :) I'll post up logs of this discussion on the wiki and forums after a break (and will summarise later too)
MarvL: Something along the lines of Mentorship, and the priest passes if the marriage is successful
HaxTut: marvl: i feel liek thats too much "cross-contamination" if you will
Shani: - yeah me too
FaceAnkh: I'd just like to end with a thank you to those that came here to talk and contributed remotely :)
FaceAnkh: we'll probably have another talk in a week or so when people have had time to think and post comments :)
(continuation by remote comments)
Khleevi: You don't really want one passing a test in one discipline to be reliant on another discipline.
MacPhisto: Funny... that's what harmony seems to be about... ;)
sinless: helping someone else pass tests might be ok (like reason)
Khleevi: You already have test where people help others pass: festivals, pilgramage, vigil are examples.
Amtep: I think it could be enough if the priest passes after doing enough weddings. That way, priests who are asked often will pass. And that must be because they either enjoy it or are really good at it :)
HaxTut: good idea amtep
Khleevi: That may unfairly restrict the number of priests that pass, since there is really a very limited number of marriages performed.
sinless: mmmmm add an element of RP? priests leading some kind of rp event?
Esme: I'd really love to see marraige totally removed from the test line personally...feature ;p
Amtep: It will definitely restrict it, but I'm not sure about "unfairly". Is it unfair that only 1 in 7 people can pass Mentorship? :)
Balthazarr: I like esme's idea :)
Khleevi: I like the idea of an RP event. I don't have any suggestions for it, but it requires cooperation without the cross discipline requirement.
Khleevi: Fortunately for Mentorship, with the number of new players that come in, almost all long term players could pass if they desired. I think that priests relying on marriage would have much less than a 1 in 7 chance. Mostly because that is one test a great many people don't want to take the risk required to pass.
Khleevi: Now, if Marriage we revamped, and the couples had fewer rights with the other's account, then it may pick up and be a valid idea.
Khleevi: For instance, remove the right for a spouse to use the DP powers.
Amtep: Hmm, actually, the not-married people seem to be a minority :)
Khleevi: Allow divource if the other spouse leaves the game for a set period of time.
Calixes: don't think Teppy will let that fly.
FaceAnkh: (logging for a bit - someone else may (or may not) post comments)
kap0w: why is it that people enter a test, knowing the rules up front (no concept of divorce) cannot accept the same when their choice in mate doesnt work out?
Khleevi: My suggestion was the change the rules so that perhaps more people would be willing to take the test.
MacPhisto: The rules are what actually makes it a *test*
kap0w: ie: lower the bar by lowering the risk?
kap0w: is it really THAT important more people get married?
MacPhisto: The rules of the test are known before hand...
MacPhisto: and people don't think about the consequences of that pass at the time
MarvL: 6 months worth of consequences are different, though, than 18 months of consequences.
MarvL: And Tale 2 was advertised as a 6 month telling.
MacPhisto: it's a known risk
MarvL: Almost a sure thing, with Teppy :-)
MacPhisto: we also know that the tale really wasn't going to last that short amount of time ;)