This is the formatted log of the brief (well, kinda) review of Worship test proposals held on E! the other night. The intent was just to nudge discussion, not make any firm decisions.
Also see the forum thread for alternative formatting (maybe easier to read).
Esme: doobie doobie doooo o/~
FaceAnkh: *coughs WORSHIP cough*
FaceAnkh: we have a bit of good news today - Calixes managed to find a flower that works to give us Joy Incense :D
Esme: Hurray for Calixes!
FaceAnkh: thanks to all the people at Blooming Joyous and all those that helped with donations too :)
FaceAnkh: now we just need to mass produce about 800 bulbs (so more fert donations probably wouldn't hurt, if you like stirring kettles) ;)
Calixes: ack...and Blooming Joyous, yes. /blush
FaceAnkh: anyway, since that was one of the major blockers on the worship monument (we still need some rare mosses - /info worship moss), this seems like a good time to look over the test proposals :)
FaceAnkh: we were thinking it might be helpful to just briefly review what's out there, without making any firm decisions, to get people thinking
FaceAnkh: then maybe ask the test designers to come and chat a bit over the coming days about the tests that people favour most :)
FaceAnkh: (I see people kindly offering fertiliser help on the Lounge too - thank you all) :)
FaceAnkh: anyway, we probably have about 3 weeks left of the telling (despite Gharib not croaking after 30 days), so we'll probably want to pick a test in a week or so to give us time to get everything settled
FaceAnkh: so, the test proposals.. :)
FaceAnkh: we're going to be looking at the list on http://wiki.atitd.net/tale2/Monument_Tests (bottom of the page) and just going through them
FaceAnkh: Hellinar and Esme are here too, and we have the message board, so feel free to send in comments - I'll make sure the log gets posted later :)
FaceAnkh: just got an anonymous comment that whatever else happens, the test should include chocolate ;)
Kaotika: Ha :)
Esme: It wasnt me!! O_O
FaceAnkh: anyway, the first one up is the Test of the Chocolate Ring, by ShanVizen :)
FaceAnkh: oop, *Kula Ring
Hellinar: LoL
FaceAnkh: in this Test, you start off by collecting a Kula Ring at a University of Worship
FaceAnkh: it's intended to be a moderately expensive item to acquire, with costs varying per region
FaceAnkh: you then have to trade the ring with other people, always at a university, and it gathers the names of the people that have owned it
FaceAnkh: to pass the test, you simply have to return a ring with 21 names on it :)
Hellinar: But there is a catch?
FaceAnkh: there are some interesting twists though - firstly, valuable rings with many names can be returned for resources, and secondly, there are restrictions on who you can trade with (based on the number of names on the rings being traded)
Hellinar: I like the involvement of the Univ of Worship in the test
FaceAnkh: ShanVizen commented on the wiki that he was hoping to create a tension between the cooperation needed to create long lists of names with the greed of being able to trade in the rings for resources
Hellinar: That sounds like a tension that usually is found in Leadership.. interesting..
FaceAnkh: nod, I think it's the only one of the proposals that has an element of direct player competition in it (for Worship)
FaceAnkh: (if anyone out there has comments, please type them into the E! channel - we can post them)
Wuqensta: ROFL chocolate ring
Esme: I am not sure that I see fully the correlation to worship in the test fully, although its an interesting idea.
FaceAnkh: as far as a test it would replace goes, I imagine it would probably be Vigil or Holy Shrine?
FaceAnkh: I expect we'll be losing Marriage to Harmony though, so we may end up keeping all the other tests :)
Sedelyan: Personally, I find that the Test of the Kula Ring is similar in some ways to Alignment.
Amtep: I don't think the "greed" angle will actually work. It can't be made profitable enough to be worth doing -- not without turning it into something we can all get together and get free stuff from :) But I think I like the test better without that.
FaceAnkh: Amtep raises a pretty good point there - Egypt does have a strong tendency not to show greed in large enough amounts to cause significant trouble
Amtep: Perhaps what I like most about it is that to pass, you have to meet someone new every day :)
Sedelyan: I believe Holy Shrine is most likely to be changed, because of its similarities to other tests -- Humble Priests, Pilgrimage, and Beacons.
Sedelyan: Of course, most Worship tests tend to be similar.
asukals: i like the test idea but i think it sounds more like leadership kinda similar to the test of trust
Hellinar: I'm not too worried about the similarity of a proposed test to a current one. The impletmenatation detals can make it feel quite different.
FaceAnkh: nod, feels like a mix of trust and alignment parties, if one had to cram it into a category :)
FaceAnkh: yes, we're only really talking about the mechanisms rather than the details so far :)
Amtep: I don't see the link with alignment though. With kula rings you won't have to search for just the right partner -- lots of people will qualify, you just have to meet them.
FaceAnkh: I guess the way I'd see people doing this (en mass) would be to hold some large parties at UWorships - won't always happen, of course
FaceAnkh: anyone have more comments or shall we move on? :)
Amtep: Well, the details of the test make it very difficult to pass with a large party. For example, you have to be at the *right* UWorship. It could easily be tweaked to make that impossible.
FaceAnkh: true, one could tweak it that way but I think it'd be a shame to arrange a worship test so that grouping wasn't beneficial
Sedelyan: If you tweak it like that, it becomes more like a Body test than a Worship one.
FaceAnkh: as I see it, the current design would allow for that, but still make it possible for non-groups to pass (which is good - avoids the problem you have if you miss the single Maat festival, for example)
Hellinar: Personally, I believe that, as with Architecture, Worship should revolve around groups. Of course, since for Architecture, many reject that idea, Worship might have the same sort of patron.
Sedelyan: So penaltizing large groups couldn't really serve any purpose.
FaceAnkh: next up, the Test of Transcendental Transference (I can't think of a chocolatey name for this one and transcendental toffee sounds silly) :)
FaceAnkh: in this test, you start off by visiting an altar to get coordinates for a location special to you for a few days
FaceAnkh: next, you visit these coordinates and perform a small ritual to summon an altar
FaceAnkh: with the support of 3 other people (who don't gain directly from helping you), you perform a ritual that prepares you to transcend
FaceAnkh: next, you should go to another person's special location and support them in their ritual
FaceAnkh: when you support them, you transcend and receive a stat bonus as a reward
FaceAnkh: you also become part of a chain with the person you supported, who is now also prepared to transcend and can move on to support someone else
FaceAnkh: at the end of a week, the people in the longest chain pass
FaceAnkh: that's the basic mechanic to the test, though Teao proposes various modifications to tweak certain aspects
FaceAnkh: I like the small reward for being an active part of a chain - encourages people to keep doing it after they've passed
FaceAnkh: any thoughts out there on this one? (free toffee for comments)
Esme: I like that it has an element of cooperation.
Sedelyan: Really, the major problem in my mind is that it's a time-limited test.
Sedelyan: Ideally, with a few exceptions, tests should not be limited by time.
Sedelyan: (You're welcome to quibble with me all you want on this issue. Exceptions include Thought and Art, and page me if you disagree.)
FaceAnkh: the coordinates of your special spot change every few days, which is a reasonable window for getting a few people together - organising the chain might be interesting in week :)
FaceAnkh: Teao does mention that the lengths of the cycles can be changed, of course
FaceAnkh: it's also got an element of competition between groups - a bit like bureau perhaps in that it's sufficiently large scale that only a couple of chains might compete
Amtep: Does the chain ever break? Or can you keep extending it until you pass?
FaceAnkh: as I understand it, the chains would be reset at the passing time
FaceAnkh: though I guess one might be able to make huge enough chains to pass the majority of Egypt in a couple of weeks
FaceAnkh: (Teao suggests requiring being in multiple winning chains as a potential fix for that)
FaceAnkh: *makes a note he owes Amtep toffee and prepares to move on*
FaceAnkh: the anonymous chocolate person suggested the rewards should involve chocolate too, then asked for a toffee ;p
FaceAnkh: next up is the Test of Imbuement, by Amtep :)
FaceAnkh: in this one, the idea is that a succession of priests create a ritual blade, each working to make it perfect (holy)
FaceAnkh: to begin with, a ritual blade is forged on an anvil, like a standard item
FaceAnkh: the number of hits are limited, like resin wedges, so it's practically impossible to make it perfect
FaceAnkh: since the idea is to eventually make the blade perfect, the higher the starting quality, the less work you need to do later
FaceAnkh: a group of 4 priests takes the blade and buries it somewhere
FaceAnkh: when they bury it, they receive a vision of how long it should stay buried
FaceAnkh: they then need to inform a different group where the blade is and when it should be dug up
FaceAnkh: this second group can then come and unearth the blade and, if they got the timing right and the ritual correct, the blade gains an extra 1k-3k quality
FaceAnkh: if they mess it up, the blade stays as it was when buried
FaceAnkh: once a blade reaches perfection (10k quality), the group can take it to a university and pass the test
FaceAnkh: the idea is that each group of priests is helping the next ones
FaceAnkh: (you can't touch the same blade twice, which enforces this)
Thurgret: fights off the urge to hang around and throw out quips :)
FaceAnkh: *gives Thur a toffee to stick him up*
FaceAnkh: the design also mentions that the spots chosen for burying the blade affect the quality given and the time taken, so people will gradually learn good spots
FaceAnkh: I'd be curious to know if it would be possible for a random group to just happen upon a blade (I guess this would be pretty unlikely)
FaceAnkh: it also might allow for trade for expert smiths to start people off with good blades (assuming the initial group doesn't have to make it themselves)
Sedelyan: I would highly suggest having the carpentry blade that we have NOW as the ritual one, so that 9999-quality isn't reachable without going mad.
FaceAnkh: hehe
FaceAnkh: people have managed some pretty impressive blades - it would be possible to pass in one burial maybe :)
Sedelyan: Maybe. But if it's simpler to gather a ton of people and pass it that way, all the better.
Hellinar: Well, I think the requirement should be set higher than it is possible ot bet without divine assistance
FaceAnkh: it has a nice size to it too - probably a couple of groups over a few weeks would do be enough to get a pass without too much strain
Hellinar: Couple of things I liked about this test. One is the there is a large time window for doing the ritual. Good for different time zones
Amtep: I think a "spot" for this test should be fairly large, maybe a 16x16 coordinate area. And only one blade can be buried in it at a time. That way you don't get everyone using the same spot :) And it means no precision clicking is needed to do the ritual.
Sedelyan: A suggestion: Perhaps, with four people sacrificing at an altar, one of them may be gifted with a 'blueprint' item? That could then be used to forge the blade.
Hellinar: and the othe thing is that the people who first bury the blade aren't the ones who pass..
Sedelyan: Sacrifice is well within the realm of worship, I believe.
FaceAnkh: I like that you're helping others outside your immediate group :)
Hellinar: The ritual object doesn't have to be a blade though.. we could use other objects if we thought them more appropriate.
Sedelyan: One issue is that the blade has no other use...I'd suggest items like barometers.
FaceAnkh: I guess one could even take it to an extreme and use any quality-based object :)
Hellinar: You could even use a more traditional Worship oject like a large gem, and "charge it up" by burying and retreiving
FaceAnkh: that might make people that are instinctively unhappy with anvils happier while preserving the feel and mechanic of the test :)
Hellinar: For me it is the suggested ritual, and interdependance that make it a Worship test rather than the forging of the blade
Amtep: Yes, the anvil part seemed to be a sore point :) That could easily be someting else. But I'd like it to be something "made", to give this feeling of creating something worthy for the gods.
FaceAnkh: ok, lets move on to the next one :)
FaceAnkh: this one is Hellinar's - The Test of the Ritual Priests
FaceAnkh: this one has a fairly unique angle on it - it's focussed around ceremony and movement instead of the more common resource sacrifices
FaceAnkh: in this test, you gather a group of priests together, all acting in different roles
FaceAnkh: (1 head priest, 3 pairs of celebrants and 7 witnesses, making a group of 14)
FaceAnkh: an altar is decorated with candles and glass torches
FaceAnkh: the glass torches are arranged in a hexagon, with ritual torches between them
FaceAnkh: the celebrants stand by the torches and the head priest by the altar, who guides the ceremony
FaceAnkh: at a "beat" given by the altar, the head priest performs emotes at the altar and the pairs of celebrants perform actions at the torches
FaceAnkh: the intention is to give the impression of a ceremonial dance to the watchers, with stately and measured movements in a surrounding of light
(unlogged): This seems alot more worshippy as well as fun to me, though possibly a bit difficult to coordinate.
FaceAnkh: to complete a ceremony, the priests must complete the sequence some number of times before the ritual torches burn out
FaceAnkh: on each completion, the tasks of the priests change
FaceAnkh: to pass the test, you have to complete the ritual 49 times
FaceAnkh: since Hellinar is here, he can probably correct anything I got wrong :)
Hellinar: Excellent summary, FaceAnkh..
Hellinar: Couple of things..
Hellinar: I'm thinking "Test of the Ritual Dance" might be a better title, its the feel I want for the test
Hellinar: And, on reflection, 49 times is likely way too much
Hellinar: Perhaps 7 times, but only once per Egyptian month
Maxion: that would take too long, I'd say
Hellinar: I also would like to see it coded so the Server adjusts the difficulty with server populaiton. Easier when the population is low. This is to compensate for it being harder to form a group in off periods
FaceAnkh: reduce the number of priests? or the number of repeats needed? :)
FaceAnkh: I agree with the name change too - definitely feels like a dance :)
Hellinar: Well, seven Egyptian months is only a couple of months Earth time.. depends on when the test was released. Just don't let people do it 7 times in one week
Hellinar: Number of movements in a sequence, and number of repeats.
FaceAnkh: I rather like the whole feel of this test too - it's probably got the strongest sense of ritual to it :)
FaceAnkh: it might need some tuning on the number of repetitions as you said :)
Esme: I think its really important in a worship test to have cooperative activities that are not based on exensive resources or competition. And this should be fun as well as very well in the spirit of worship.
Esme: I think its also very unique as a test and very ceremonial.
Hellinar: I would like it to work so that more than 14 people can turn up, and the more experienced people help the less experienced through the ritual
Hellinar: Enough said :) Next ?
Esme: I like that spirit of it too...unselfishness
FaceAnkh: next up is Cappu's Tests of the Sacrificial Bonfire :)
FaceAnkh: in this one, the idea is to build a large bonfire (not too hard to build, but a significant amount of wood and oil say)
FaceAnkh: a ritual is performed to reveal which items the Gods want sacrificed (which will be a complex item, like wine, incense, beer, chocolate, moss, citrus fruit, etc)
FaceAnkh: each item would be blessed by and added to the bonfire
FaceAnkh: then, 7 groups of 7 people perform a ritual, causing the bonfire to ignite and burn
FaceAnkh: the passing details aren't specified exactly, but participation in one or more bonfires would presumably pass you
FaceAnkh: this sounds a bit similar to Vigil, but without the competitive element :)
FaceAnkh: it also has complex item requirements (like Festivals and Humble) that should keep suppliers motivated in producing and learning new systems
FaceAnkh: *offers chocolate:dark for comments*
Hellinar: It sounds like it might be easier in terms of timing than Vigil
Hellinar: Might be an interesting replacement for Vigil on fact
FaceAnkh: yes, doesn't sound time limited at all :)
FaceAnkh: I'm not sure how it would feel to the participants - I guess the fun part for them would be tracking down the supplies needed :)
FaceAnkh: the rituals might be interesting too, if Cappu specifies them a bit more :)
Hellinar: I dont think we'd want this one AND vigil though
FaceAnkh: most of the focus seems to be on the complex items at the minute :)
FaceAnkh: moving on then :)
FaceAnkh: next is the Test of the Hallowed Ground
FaceAnkh: I thought this one up in response to the previous E! talk (but didn't foresee the need for chocolate then :S)
FaceAnkh: the basic idea on this one is that some areas of Egypt are special to the Gods for a while
FaceAnkh: people will search out these places and, once found, should honour the God residing there
FaceAnkh: in order to honour a God, a small group of 3 performs a ritual appropriate to the God at the holy area
FaceAnkh: at the end of a week, everyone that honoured a God receives a % based on the number of people that also worshipped that God in that place
FaceAnkh: then the God moves on to another spot
FaceAnkh: the idea of this test was to be pretty similar to Festivals - large scale organisation is needed to gather people to worship one of the 7 Gods
FaceAnkh: but more flexible in the timezone and grouping requirements - you have a week to visit the site and only need a small group
FaceAnkh: also, and this is an element that can apply to other tests, the reward for the Test would be some kind of blessing that would need "recharging" by continued participation
FaceAnkh: to encourage group organisation, it might also be nice to require an altar to be built (at a moderate cost) once a God has been found
Hellinar: I like the relaxed timeframe..
Esme: I really like that it encourages continutation by those already passed. Worship tests are best when the more experienced worshippers continue to bring the new worshippers along. Its the spirit of the discipline.
Hellinar: And also the element of rechargeable blessings that reward continued participation
FaceAnkh: I kind of liked the searching aspect (single person), followed by the (large group) organisation, with (small group) rituals, but I'm biased ;)
Esme: Running around finding the gods would be fun too
FaceAnkh: the definition of the rituals is a bit weak at the minute though - some of the other tests are much stronger on that :)
FaceAnkh: it might also be odd if Festivals stays in alongside this - some people like the large scale group tests, but some are more oriented to the smaller scale ones
Hellinar: You could also have some Gods like large rituals, less often, and some other small rituals more frequently. That way people could choose the god that liked their style
Esme: oh thats a good suggestion too
FaceAnkh: hmm, that is an interesting one
FaceAnkh: might be another whole test in that ;)
FaceAnkh: speaking of which, lets move on to the next one :)
FaceAnkh: this one is the Test of the Leavened Bread (Esme)
FaceAnkh: to begin with, the technology to create basic unleavened bread is released, which acts as a small time bonus to when used in conjunction with kitchen food
FaceAnkh: in the Test, 5 Egyptians gather in one of their homes, sharing a beer with the home owner
FaceAnkh: they wish to create some bread to share together amongst themselves and with another Egyptian at a special time in their life
FaceAnkh: with a moderate ritual, they seek guidance from the Gods on what they should do
FaceAnkh: one priest becomes the prayer leader, who performs a number of blessings throughout the creation of the bread and the sharing of it with others
FaceAnkh: another is the baker, who is given instructions on specific ingredients to go into the bread (simple things, like wheat, eggs, dates, chocolate, dates and coconut milk)
FaceAnkh: the third supplies a specific beer for yeast to make the bread rise
FaceAnkh: the 4th performs a ritual, alongside the prayer leader, during the creation of the bread and the later sharing
FaceAnkh: he shares the bread with the group once it's baked
FaceAnkh: the fifth takes some of the bread and shares it with the Egyptian at a special time in his life (this should be something to celebrate, but not tied to wealth or fame, like a newlywed or someone that has recently initiated or is new to Egypt)
FaceAnkh: points accumulate every time the ritual is fully completed and are also gained by the 5th priest sharing the bread more widely
FaceAnkh: passing is group-competitive, similar to Pilgrim
FaceAnkh: since Esme is here too, perhaps she can correct anything I misunderstood :)
Esme: You don't need any correction ;p But what I was trying to create is the feel that worship is a part of every simple working man's life and is included in his everyday type routines such as even meal preparation. And I knew that bread is missing in Egypt and though this might be a good way to introduce it into Egypt as well.
Hellinar: I like the focus on the home in it
FaceAnkh: nod, bread would be a very cool thing to add :)
FaceAnkh: *thinks of bread:chocolate chip*
Esme: It seems like so many tests are doing or making something expensive and elaborate and I wanted to have a worshipful test that is an extension of a common Egyptian persons regular life and include the feeling of friendship and community in it. Everyday life for everyday man and worship as a part of that.
FaceAnkh: I like the sharing with someone at a special time too - that seems nicely inclusive and in the spirit of Worship
Hellinar: Sounds a bit more complicated than Humble priest in some ways, but not having to be dedicated to a particular priest will make it easier to get a group together
Hellinar: yes, I really like that "outreach' aspect. Very unusual but appropriate
Esme: It is a little more complicated because I included prayer/blessings along the way alot which I think also would probably be natural in a religious life.
Esme: I also tried to keep it time zone friendly and inexpensive
Hellinar: yes, I like the spoken prayer idea (/me wonders if he should steal it for his test idea)
FaceAnkh: hehe, I can see us borrowing elements from other tests to put into whatever we end up with :)
Hellinar: I think that is a religous tradition, yes..
FaceAnkh: maybe the Test of the Miracleous Chocolate-Imbued Sacrificial Kula-Hoop Dance on the Leavened Ground
Esme: I think worship integrated into real life and become a part of that rather than a strange artificial process that has nothing to do with the everyday man :)
Esme stares at that title ;p
Esme: yes if no one else has anything to say?
FaceAnkh: ok, moving on :)
FaceAnkh: the last full test proposal is asukals' Test of Miracles
FaceAnkh: the idea of this test is to give a feeling that the Gods are present in Egypt and will respond when someone needs help
FaceAnkh: the mechanic is that 7 people form up a devotional group to a particular God
FaceAnkh: each God can perform different miracles
FaceAnkh: (ranging from stats bonuses to yield bonuses, and fairly substantial)
FaceAnkh: the miracle is performed by the devotional group undertaking a ritual, targetted at a named person (doesn't have to be present)
FaceAnkh: sorry, *shouldn't be present (so that the miracle appears to come out of the blue)
FaceAnkh: when the ritual is performed correctly, the blessee receives the bonus and the priests are penalised the same amount
FaceAnkh: (e.g. if the blessee gets +7 dex, each of the 7 priests loses 1 dex, lasting for a set period)
FaceAnkh: the devotional group is able to bless several times (I think asukals later decided there should be a limit on this) with increasingly strong results
FaceAnkh: the suggested passing mechanism is either goal-oriented (perform 7 miracles) or points oriented (you get points for performing miracles, with the highest scores passing)
asukals: yes there needs to be a time limit otherwise there's an exploit possibility to it
FaceAnkh: the idea of this one seems like a lot of fun - it would be really nice to be grumbling on a guild channel about how slow mining is going, then suddenly get a nice END boost
Hellinar: I like the concept of transfer from the group to an individual, with the group sacrificing for the good of another
asukals: yes, that was the vision i had for it
Hellinar: Stat bonus/losses sound a bit tricky to balance though.. they can mean much or little depending on what you are doing
Maxion: there's going to be alot of grumbling going on then ;p
asukals: i mentioned the not present part because i had this ideal of the group performing the ritual in seclusion and having the bonus granted like it was from the gods
FaceAnkh: it might be nice to develop a few parts of the test (asukals already mentions that the rituals will need defining) - it might be nice if the boosts are only worth points if they're "useful" in some way (maybe actively used) :)
Esme: This is a test that adds more overt and noneconmic sacrifice which I think is a good thing. That seems very in the spirit of worship to me.
Esme: It's also cooperative and reaches out to others also good things.
asukals: what i really wanted to see in this game is a worship test that allowed the ability to roleplay the priests and priestesses of egypt
Esme: Plus its a very original and fresh feeling and fun.
FaceAnkh: I think both Hellinar and Esme are with you there too - wanting more involvement :)
Esme: I sort of think it would be nice to bless in person though and that would make it seem more of a ritual and would be nice for the person recieving to know where it came from really.
Hellinar: I'm not sure that stat bonuses are the best way to go.. but that doesn't seem to be critical to the test and can be worked on
asukals: specific bonuses is something that is best left to group discussions
asukals: when i designed i wasn't sure what would be considered balanced or what people would view as worthwhile
Hellinar: Maybe this test could use Esme's idea of just blessing people at "special" times in their lives
FaceAnkh: ok, that's all of the tests briefly(!) reviewed :)
FaceAnkh: there are also a few interesting idea fragments, like Hellinar's idea of a passing ceremony, that we might look at sometime
FaceAnkh: those are at http://wiki.atitd.net/tale2/Monument_Tests/Worship_Idea_Fragments
FaceAnkh: the test proposals themselves are on the wiki at http://wiki.atitd.net/tale2/Monument_Tests and generally have links to a forum thread discussing them
FaceAnkh: I'll post up a log of this discussion on the wiki and forums tomorrow (got to sleep and dream of chocolate soon) :)
FaceAnkh: thanks again to those that commented and listened, and to Hellinar and Esme for staying here through it all :)
FaceAnkh: I'll probably ask the test designers to come and explain their tests in more detail at a time convenient to them over the next week or so, then we can work on picking a specific test :)