Users > Airmid > BeerResearch > CaseVPNanaCinn

Banana/Cinnamon spots

Here's a selection of spots:

Name	Spot	Microbe list
Y42/1/74	-2289, -597	Y42 Y1 Y74 M79 A78 Y19 L5 L85 A6 Y90 Y83 L93 L29 L69 L76 Y16 L13
Y42/1	-2279, -607	Y42 Y1 L5 Y19 A6 Y83 Y74 L76 A78 M79 Y51 Y16 L29 L100 Y90 L93
Y42/74	-2299, -597	Y42 Y74 M79 A6 L5 Y19 A78 L85 Y1 L69 Y90 L93 Y16 L13 L29 L76 Y98 Y83 L100

From earlier work with Y42 it is known that a recipe of 25m 120h, added at start, will provide enough nutrients for Y42 to make a VP Banana/Cinnamon beer. Although all 3 spots mentioned above have Y42 as first microbe, they act differently:

Name	Recipe	Result	Al	Co	Mo	Vi	Gl	Ma	La	CA	LA	AA	Ba	Or	Bn	Ch	Da	Ho	Nu	Ci	Ta	Gr	Na
Y42/1/74	25m 120h	Potent Sweet muddled	1113	74	0	116	137	250	0	0	0	0	149	57	230	14	50	129	16	215	50	35	23
Y42/1	25m 120h	Potent Sweet muddled, but on table VP Fruity muddled!!	1128	74	0	96	53	250	0	0	46	23	149	50	181	14	107	136	20	170	50	97	25
Y42/74	25m 120h	VP Fruity, hint of banana/cinnamon	1300	74	0	91	8	192	0	0	0	0	149	73	300	19	20	130	17	280	50	44	26

Y42's maximum alcohol level is 1300, so that makes it easy to see that on the first 2 spots Y42 has stopped working before it hit its full potential. In the first batch (Y42/1/74) either or both Y1 and Y74 had a nibble at the soup, as can be seen in the raised Date flavour value. In the second batch (Y42/1) a whole range of microbes has been busy, as can be seen in the presence of Lactic Acid (a Lactobacillus), Acetic Acid (a Acetobacter), a high value for Date flavour (Y1 and/or Y74) and a high value for grassiness (Y19).
Also I'm very much puzzled by the behaviour of the second beer on the tasting table. Can it be that the beer values are recalculated the moment a beer is placed on the table?

To get a bit more insight in what happened with the first batch from above, I did some yeast tests to determine the entry time on Y42. It proved to be very late: at 900 seconds left! Then I did a beer in the same kettle, and sealed the lid at 900 seconds left:

Name	Recipe	Result	Al	Co	Mo	Vi	Gl	Ma	La	CA	LA	AA	Ba	Or	Bn	Ch	Da	Ho	Nu	Ci	Ta	Gr	Na
Y42/1/74	25m 120h	VP Fruity, hint banana/cinnamon	1300	75	0	90	8	192	0	0	0	0	150	73	300	19	20	130	17	280	50	44	26

So this showed that in a single yeast beer Y42 was able to go all the way.

A more complete list of yeast entry times at the Y42/1/74 spot:

Yeast	Y42	Y1	Y74	Y19
entry time	between 936-920	between 792-780	between 760-744	between 696-680

Testing the Working Together Apart model

Now that the entry times for the main yeasts are known, it's time to put the Working Together Apart model to the test for this spot. The recipe of 25m 120 honey is used. A tick length of 20 seconds is used.
Y42 enters the brew between 940-920 seconds left, so that would mean it starts working in tick 75. Y1's entry time of 800-780 seconds left corresponds with tick 82, Y74's entry time with tick 84. and Y19's entry time with tick 87.
Values used for vitamin floor: Y42 - 30, Y1 - 121, Y74 - 207. Y19's vitamin floor is unknown. Vitamins rates of 0.13 per unit of alcohol were used for Y42, and 0.14 vitamins per unit alcohol for Y1. I chose a higher vitamin/alcohol rate for Y42 than recorded on the wiki, because I often add the malt a few seconds late. The value I used was based on the sealed batch that I did on this spot. Because of this, all vitamin values in the model below should be treated as estimates.
Unfortunately true alcohol ceilings are unknown. We can only say that Y42's ceiling must be between 992-1300; Y1's ceiling between 502-713; Y74's ceiling between 847-1026 and Y19's ceiling between 847-1026 too.
Y42 spends 7 ticks alone in the brew, behaving as in a single yeast batch. Modelling starts from tick 81:

tick	yeasts	before tick	Y42 activity	after Y42	Y1 activity	after Y1	Y74 activity	after Y74	Y19 activity	after Y19
81	Y42	A129 V243 G1121 M250	A49 V6 G49 M0	A178 V237 G1072 M250
82	Y42 Y1	A178 V237 G1072 M250	A64 V8 G64 M0	A242 V229 G1008 M250	A10 V1 G10 M0	A252 V228 G998 M250
83	Y42 Y1	A252 V228 G998 M250	A83 V11 G83 M0	A335 V217 G915 M250	A14 V2 G14 M0	A349 V215 G901 M250
84	Y42 Y1 Y74	A349 V215 G901 M250	A108 V14 G108 M0	A457 V191 G793 M250	A20 V3 G20 M0	A477 V188 G773 M250	?
85	Y42 Y1 Y74	A477 V188 G773 M250	A140 V18 G140 M0	A617 V170 G633 M250	A28 V4 G28 M0	A645 V166 G605 M250	?
86	Y42 Y1 Y74	A645 V166 G605 M250	A182 V24 G182 M0	A827 V142 G423 M250	A39 V5 G39 M0	A866 V137 G384 250	?
87	Y42 Y1 Y74 Y19	A866 V137 G384 M250	A237 V31 G237 M0	A1103 V106 G147 M250	-	-	-	-	-	-

Compared to the results from the 25m 120 honey batch, the results aren't bad at all. The vitamin values are off, but that was to be expected. Since I often add malts a few seconds late, the batch may have started with a higher vitamin value than I listed here. If that was the case here again, then it is not hard to explain the 10 missing alcohol. With slightly higher vitamin values Y74 must have been able to get a tick in: producing 10 alcohol and eating 1 vitamin and 10 glucose. Assumed this is correct, the values for Alcohol and Sugars give a perfect match. Y19 can't have had any influence in this model, since the alcohol level is well above its ceiling at the moment it enters.

With these adjustions, a flavour check can be done on this model. The alcohol the yeasts were responsible for according to the model is multiplied by the flavour ratios given in the yeast list.

	alcohol	Or	Bn	Ch	Da	Nu	Ci	Na
Y42	992	56	229	14	15	13	213	20
Y1	111	2	?	1	30	3	2	3

Y74	10	0	0	0	4	0	0	0
total	1113	58	>229	15	49	16	215	23
beer	1113	57	230	14	50	16	215	23

The calculated values match the values from the actual beer very well. It is clear now too that Y74 did indeed perform a tick of activity in this beer. Without it, the Date value would have been significantly below the value recorded in the beer.