Guilds > TwistedThistle > Discuss > NutrientOsc

Nutrient Oscillation

One of the goals to growing thistles is to do so in a manner which is as cheap as possible for the grower. This allows you to get more yield from the base resources (Dung, Saltpeter, Water) then you would otherwise. Many thistle nutrient requirements can be completed in various manners all requiring various amounts of resources, but when looking for a solution you want to use as little as possible to stretch your supplies. This can mean the difference between 5 thistles costing you a mere pittance compared to them having you slave away at the tubs for hours making saltpeter so you can grow.

To start with, let's go over the basics of what our base resources are, and how they are aquired:

Resource	Item Used	Method Obtained
Sun	N/A	World Driven
Oxy	N/A	Free to add in garden.
H20	Water in Jugs	Fill at water source, must have premade jugs. Jugs are not consumed.
Nit	Dung	Gather from animal pens.
Pot	Saltpeter	Gather dung from animal pens, rot in tubs 20 dung + 20 Water : 4 Saltpeter.

At this point it becomes obvious that some resources are very easy to come by and some are very expensive in time and resources. Every single recipe you want to design should attempt to limit Pot and Nit use as much as possible. The other requirements are virtually free.

How does one do that, however, is the trick.

If you look at the formula listing for certain sun values you will find that not all conversions are created equal. Some of these conversions double your nutrients, and some of them half them. In the Oscillation technique, we will use this fact to our favor and then transfer the accumulated nutrients to where we want them.

For example, the following run is looking to fulfil the requirement of B+C+P-T- for a silkworm farm (this run was done with 10 Nit -> 3.3Pyr as the only known daily void.)

Tick	Nit	Pot	H2O	Oxy	Sun	Tick	Asc	Bio	Car	Fol	Nia	Pyr	Thi
0	50	50	99	99	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
1	30	20	89	89	0	1	0	2	3	0	6	0	0
2	10	0	79	79	0	2	0	5	3	0	13	0	0
3	0	0	69	69	0	3	0	5	3	0	13	0	0
4	0	0	59	59	0	4	0	5	3	0	13	0	0
5	0	0	49	49	0	5	0	5	3	0	13	0	0
6	0	0	39	39	0	6	0	5	3	30	3	0	0
7	0	0	29	29	0	7	0	5	0	39	0	0	1
8	0	0	19	19	0	8	0	5	0	39	0	0	6
9	0	0	29	49	0	9	0	5	3	39	0	0	20
10	0	0	19	39	0	10	0	5	23	39	0	0	10
11	0	0	29	49	0	11	0	15	23	39	0	0	20
12	0	0	19	39	0	12	0	15	43	39	0	0	10
13	0	0	29	49	0	13	0	25	43	39	0	0	20
14	0	0	19	39	0	14	0	25	63	39	0	0	10
15	0	0	29	49	0	15	0	35	63	39	0	0	20
16	0	0	19	39	0	16	0	35	83	39	0	0	10
17	0	0	29	49	0	17	0	45	83	39	0	0	20
18	0	0	19	39	0	18	0	45	99	39	0	0	10
19	0	0	9	29	0	19	0	55	89	39	0	0	20
20	0	0	0	19	0	20	0	65	89	59	0	0	20
21	0	0	0	9	0	21	0	75	89	79	0	0	20
22	0	0	0	0	0	22	0	85	89	99	0	0	20
23	0	0	0	0	0	23	0	95	89	99	0	0	20
24	0	0	0	0	0	24	0	99	89	99	0	0	20
25	0	0	0	0	0	25	0	99	89	99	0	0	20
26	0	0	0	0	0	26	0	99	89	99	0	0	20
27	0	0	0	0	0	27	0	99	89	99	0	0	20
28	0	0	0	0	0	28	0	99	89	99	0	0	20
29	0	0	0	0	0	29	0	99	89	99	0	0	20
30	0	0	0	0	0	30	0	99	89	99	0	0	20
31	0	0	0	0	0	31	0	99	89	99	0	0	20
32	0	0	0	0	0	32	0	99	89	99	0	0	20
33	0	0	0	0	0	33	0	99	89	99	0	0	20
34	0	0	0	0	0	34	0	99	89	99	0	0	20
35	0	0	0	0	0	35	0	99	89	99	0	0	20
36	0	0	0	0	0	36	0	99	89	99	0	0	20
37	0	0	0	0	0	37	0	99	89	99	0	0	20
38	0	0	0	60	0	38	0	99	89	99	0	0	20
39	0	0	0	50	0	39	0	99	99	99	0	0	10
40	0	0	0	40	0	40	0	99	99	99	0	0	0

During the first 3 or 4 ticks of this run we manage to convert some of the original default values for Nit and Pot to useable resources. These will used as a starting point to be put through advantageous conversions to turn that small amount of first available nutrients into the required thistle.

The period between ticks 9 and 19 is the part where we conduct the oscillation after Thi starts to show up due to H2O and Oxy levels dropping to where it will be produced. Two formulas are used to transfer nutrients to build the C+ value was need to complete this thistle. 10Thi -> 20Car and 10Car -> 20Thi. The conditions for this exchange are such that if you can set up H2O and Oxy values to flip flop from one conversion to the other by adding one press of H2O and Oxy to convert from Thi to Car and back again until the needed values are complete.

By using this techinque we convert nutrients from literally thin air, becuase when moving them back and forth the 10 --> 20 nature of the conversions we are adding to the nutrients without having to add more costly inputs (Pot and Nit.)

Let's take a look at what is going on in a few of the individual ticks during this segment.

Tick 11 (H2O=29 Oxy=49)

Asc	Bio	Car	Fol	Nia	Pyr	Thi
0	15	23.6	39.6	0	0	20	Active	Daily Voids	Conversion	>/<	H20	Oxy
0	15	23.6	39.6	0	0	20	1	1	Lose 10 Pot
0	15	23.6	39.6	0	0	20	1	1	Lost 10 Nit
0	15	23.6	39.6	0	0	20	0	1	10 Nit -> 3.3 Asc	>	79	.
0	15	23.6	39.6	0	0	20	0	1	10 Car -> 5 Asc	<	.	49
0	15	23.6	39.6	0	0	20	1	1	10 Pot -> 2.5 Bio	.	.	.
0	15	23.6	39.6	0	0	20	0	1	10 Asc -> 20 Bio	<	29	.
0	15	23.6	39.6	0	0	20	0	1	10 Pyr -> 10 Bio	>	.	89
0	15	23.6	39.6	0	0	20	0	1	10 Pot -> 3.3 Car	>	.	69
0	15	43.6	39.6	0	0	10	1	1	10 Thi -> 20 Car	<	39	.
0	15	43.6	39.6	0	0	10	1	1	10 Nia -> 30 Fol	<	59	.
0	15	43.6	39.6	0	0	10	0	1	10 Thi -> 20 Fol	<	.	49
0	15	43.6	39.6	0	0	10	1	1	10 Asc -> 20 Nia	.	.	.
0	15	43.6	39.6	0	0	10	0	1	10 Pyr -> 5 Nia	>	69	.
0	15	43.6	39.6	0	0	10	0	1	10 Thi -> 10 Nia	<	.	39
0	15	43.6	39.6	0	0	10	1	0	10 Nit -> 3.3 Pyr	<	39	.
0	15	43.6	39.6	0	0	10	0	1	10 Fol -> 20 Pyr	>	.	79
0	15	43.6	39.6	0	0	10	1	1	10 Asc -> 10 Thi	.	.	.
0	15	43.6	39.6	0	0	10	0	1	10 Car -> 20 Thi	<	.	49
0	15	43.6	39.6	0	0	10	1	1	10 Nia -> 5 Thi	<	49	.
0	15	43.6	39.6	0	0	10	1	1	Lose 10 H2O
0	15	43.6	39.6	0	0	10	1	1	Lose 10 Oxy
0	15	43.6	39.6	0	0	10	Real Ending Values
0	15	43	39	0	0	10	Displayed Ending Vaules

Because 10Thi -> 20Car happens before the 10Car -> 20Thi we have to make absolutely sure that there is at least 10Thi at the end of every tick so that the cycle can continue uninterrupted. If you let the Thi drop to 0, the cycle breaks and you lose your gain. When you look at the next tick, you will notice that the Thi value will temporarily drop to 0 after the Thi -> Car conversion but jump back up to 20 after the Car -> Thi conversion, this prepares us for the next round of the cycle.

Tick 12 (H2O=19 Oxy=39)

Asc	Bio	Car	Fol	Nia	Pyr	Thi
0	15	43.6	39.6	0	0	10	Active	Daily Voids	Conversion	>/<	H20	Oxy
0	15	43.6	39.6	0	0	10	1	1	Lose 10 Pot
0	15	43.6	39.6	0	0	10	1	1	Lost 10 Nit
0	15	43.6	39.6	0	0	10	0	1	10 Nit -> 3.3 Asc	>	79
5	15	33.6	39.6	0	0	10	1	1	10 Car -> 5 Asc	<	.	49
5	15	33.6	39.6	0	0	10	1	1	10 Pot -> 2.5 Bio	.	.	.
0	25	33.6	39.6	0	0	10	1	1	10 Asc -> 20 Bio	<	29	.
0	25	33.6	39.6	0	0	10	0	1	10 Pyr -> 10 Bio	>	.	89
0	25	33.6	39.6	0	0	10	0	1	10 Pot -> 3.3 Car	>	.	69
0	25	53.6	39.6	0	0	0	1	1	10 Thi -> 20 Car	<	39	.
0	25	53.6	39.6	0	0	0	1	1	10 Nia -> 30 Fol	<	59	.
0	25	53.6	39.6	0	0	0	1	1	10 Thi -> 20 Fol	<	.	49
0	25	53.6	39.6	0	0	0	1	1	10 Asc -> 20 Nia	.	.	.
0	25	53.6	39.6	0	0	0	0	1	10 Pyr -> 5 Nia	>	69	.
0	25	53.6	39.6	0	0	0	0	1	10 Thi -> 10 Nia	<	.	39
0	25	53.6	39.6	0	0	0	1	0	10 Nit -> 3.3 Pyr	<	39	.
0	25	53.6	39.6	0	0	0	0	1	10 Fol -> 20 Pyr	>	.	79
0	25	53.6	39.6	0	0	0	1	1	10 Asc -> 10 Thi	.	.	.
0	25	43.6	39.6	0	0	20	1	1	10 Car -> 20 Thi	<	.	49
0	25	43.6	39.6	0	0	20	1	1	10 Nia -> 5 Thi	<	49	.
0	25	43.6	39.6	0	0	20	1	1	Lose 10 H2O
0	25	43.6	39.6	0	0	20	1	1	Lose 10 Oxy
0	25	43.6	39.6	0	0	20	Real Ending Values
0	25	43	39	0	0	20	Displayed Ending Vaules

You will notice in these ticks that not only is our Car <-> Thi oscillation ramping up the Car we need, but it is also supplying the Car needed to convert Car -> Asc -> Bio to meet the Bio requirement of our final thisle without getting the Bio from base inputs. This is the kind of techinique that you must use to design thistle runs that are cheap and effective for your growing.

As a counterpoint

The following run is the same daily voids for the B+C+P-T- thistle, but instead of using the Nutrient Oscillation technique, we will brute force Bio and Car production using only the Bio and Car base formulas while maintaining the H2O and Oxy levels to keep those base conversions working. Because we are using the base conversions (i.e. Pot -> Car) they use up a more significant portion then they would otherwise use and more must be used over time leading to much more expensive thistles.

Tick	Nit	Pot	H2O	Oxy	Sun	Tick	Asc	Bio	Car	Fol	Nia	Pyr	Thi
0	99.9	99.9	99	99	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
1	79.9	69.9	89	89	0	1	0	2	3	0	6	0	0
2	59.9	39.9	99	99	0	2	0	5	6	0	13	0	0
3	99.9	89.9	89	89	0	3	0	7	9	0	19	0	0
4	79.9	59.9	99	99	0	4	0	10	13	0	26	0	0
5	59.9	29.9	89	89	0	5	0	12	16	0	33	0	0
6	99.9	80	99	99	0	6	0	15	19	0	39	0	0
7	79.9	50	89	89	0	7	0	17	23	0	46	0	0
8	59.9	20	99	99	0	8	0	20	26	0	52	0	0
9	99.9	80	89	89	0	9	0	22	26	0	59	0	0
10	79.9	50	99	99	0	10	0	25	29	0	66	0	0
11	59.9	20	89	89	0	11	0	27	33	0	72	0	0
12	99.9	80	99	99	0	12	0	30	33	0	79	0	0
13	79.9	50	89	89	0	13	0	32	36	0	85	0	0
14	59.9	20	99	99	0	14	0	35	39	0	92	0	0
15	99.9	80	89	89	0	15	0	37	39	0	99	0	0
16	79.9	50	99	99	0	16	0	40	42	0	99	0	0
17	59.9	20	89	89	0	17	0	42	46	0	99	0	0
18	99.9	80	99	99	0	18	0	45	46	0	99	0	0
19	79.9	50	89	89	0	19	0	47	49	0	99	0	0
20	59.9	20	99	99	0	20	0	50	52	0	99	0	0
21	99.9	80	89	89	0	21	0	52	52	0	99	0	0
22	79.9	50	99	99	0	22	0	55	56	0	99	0	0
23	59.9	20	89	89	0	23	0	57	59	0	99	0	0
24	99.9	80	99	99	0	24	0	60	59	0	99	0	0
25	79.9	50	89	89	0	25	0	62	62	0	99	0	0
26	59.9	20	99	99	0	26	0	65	66	0	99	0	0
27	99.9	80	89	89	0	27	0	67	66	0	99	0	0
28	79.9	50	99	99	0	28	0	70	69	0	99	0	0
29	59.9	20	89	89	0	29	0	72	72	0	99	0	0
30	99.9	80	99	99	0	30	0	75	72	0	99	0	0
31	79.9	50	89	89	0	31	0	77	75	0	99	0	0
32	59.9	20	99	99	0	32	0	80	79	0	99	0	0
33	99.9	80	89	89	0	33	0	82	79	0	99	0	0
34	79.9	50	99	99	0	34	0	85	82	0	99	0	0
35	59.9	20	89	89	0	35	0	87	85	0	99	0	0
36	99.9	80	99	99	0	36	0	90	85	0	99	0	0
37	79.9	50	89	89	0	37	0	92	89	0	99	0	0
38	59.9	20	79	79	0	38	0	95	92	0	99	0	0
39	49.9	0	69	69	0	39	0	97	92	0	99	0	0
40	39.9	0	59	59	0	40	0	97	92	0	99	0	0

This recipe also meets the same thisle requirements, BUT let's look at the costs of the expendable materials for these two thisles.

Item	Brute Force	Nutrient Oscillation
Saltpeter	51	0
Dung	39	0
Water	39	8

You can see that this makes all the difference in the world when Saltpeter is so expensive. In fact, with the Nutrient Oscillation recipe, the only limiting factor to production is the amount of gardens you have available and the time you have to grow, whereas the brute force recipe requires 51 Saltpeter per 5 thistles making one silk cloth cost ~500 Saltpeter. That means would would have to process ~2500 dung through tubs 20 at a time per tub to make one single silk cloth using the brute force recipe.

This means that you should use all of the ticks available during a growth cycle to move nutrients back and forth using the most advantageous ratios possible to limit the amount of expensive input materials, and try to only inject inputs into the system when absolutely necessary.

It is possible to further shave this run to use 3 water, and only 12 button presses total. I leave that as a further exercise for the reader. ;)

Which brings up another interesting point. The more button presses that you need to do to supply the thistle with the required inputs the more you will have to watch that particular garden. When you have to click a garden over 130 times you can't effectively run more then 1 (2 if you are madly skilled) whereas with a small number of button presses used in our Nutrient Ocsilliation recipe you are free to run a alot more gardens concurrently because each requires less attention. With 8 button presses per 40 ticks you should be able to run 4 gardens easily. Not only do you use less resources this way, but you can grow more at once, too.

Oscillation Example 2

Here I exploit the following chain to make A-B-C-F+P+N-P- with no Pot or Nit (no daily voids, all converisons active.)

Conversion	Unit In	Unit Out
10 Nia -> 30 Fol	10 Nia	30 Fol
10 Fol -> 20 Pyr	30 Fol	60 Pyr
10 Pyr -> 5 Nia	60 Pyr	30 Nia

We pass the nutrient values from Nia -> Fol -> Pyr around and around until we've built up enough for + ratings then stop the cycle where we want it to be. This also has the added bonus of keeping the nutrients out of Bio, making this a viable strategy for creating B- thisles.

Tick	Nit	Pot	H2O	Oxy	Sun	Tick	Asc	Bio	Car	Fol	Nia	Pyr	Thi
0	50	50	99	99	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
1	30	20	89	89	0	1	0	2	3	0	6	0	0
2	10	0	79	79	0	2	0	5	3	0	13	0	0
3	0	0	69	69	0	3	0	5	3	0	13	0	0
4	0	0	59	59	0	4	0	5	3	0	13	0	0
5	0	0	49	49	0	5	0	5	3	0	13	0	0
6	0	0	79	99	0	6	0	5	3	30	3	0	0
7	0	0	69	89	0	7	0	5	3	20	3	20	0
8	0	0	79	79	0	8	0	5	3	10	3	40	0
9	0	0	69	89	0	9	0	5	3	10	8	30	0
10	0	0	59	79	0	10	0	5	3	0	8	50	0
11	0	0	49	89	0	11	0	5	3	0	8	50	0
12	0	0	99	79	0	12	0	5	3	14	0	70	0
13	0	0	89	89	0	13	0	5	3	14	5	60	0
14	0	0	99	79	0	14	0	5	3	4	10	70	0
15	0	0	89	89	0	15	0	5	3	4	15	60	0
16	0	0	99	79	0	16	0	5	3	0	20	59	0
17	0	0	89	89	0	17	0	5	3	0	25	49	0
18	0	0	99	79	0	18	0	5	3	0	30	39	0
19	0	0	89	89	0	19	0	5	3	0	35	29	0
20	0	0	79	79	0	20	0	5	3	0	40	19	0
21	0	0	69	89	0	21	0	5	3	0	45	9	0
22	0	0	59	79	0	22	0	5	3	0	45	9	0
23	0	0	49	89	0	23	0	5	3	0	45	9	0
24	0	0	39	79	0	24	0	5	3	20	35	29	0
25	0	0	49	89	0	25	0	5	3	50	15	29	5
26	0	0	39	79	0	26	0	5	3	70	5	49	5
27	0	0	89	89	0	27	0	5	3	85	0	49	5
28	0	0	79	79	0	28	0	5	3	75	5	59	5
29	0	0	89	89	0	29	0	5	3	75	10	49	5
30	0	0	79	79	0	30	0	5	3	65	15	59	5
31	0	0	89	89	0	31	0	5	3	65	20	49	5
32	0	0	79	79	0	32	0	5	3	55	25	59	5
33	0	0	89	89	0	33	0	5	3	55	30	49	5
34	0	0	79	79	0	34	0	5	3	45	35	59	5
35	0	0	69	89	0	35	0	5	3	45	40	49	5
36	0	0	59	79	0	36	0	5	3	35	40	69	5
37	0	0	49	89	0	37	0	5	3	35	40	69	5
38	0	0	39	79	0	38	0	5	3	55	30	89	5
39	0	0	49	89	0	39	0	5	3	85	10	89	10
40	0	0	39	79	0	40	0	5	3	89	0	99	10

Comments, Feedback, and Questions

Please place questions, comments, or feedback about this discussion article in this section. Thanks --Varius
Having made specific 0 sp thistles myself with this method i guess i can add my opinion here....IT WORKS! However thistles are usually not obtainable at very cheap costs on every day thanks to various voids happening....most of the time you can get a cheap enough recipe though. --Sun-Aj