Transcript of tutorial chat held by MomMouse and Sola on January 10th.
ShanVizen: Hello :) Q&A about mutagens will always be nice.
MomMouse: ok to get started, i think we should explain about solvents?
Zatarg: Yeah, start with the easiest?
Sola: Well, we have two related technologies we are working with: solvents and mutagens
Sola: Solvents tell us about the genome of a plant. (Lily, Rose, Flax seed, or Vine)
Sola: Mutagens change the genome of a plant
MomMouse: there are 3 types of solvents
Sola: The genome determines the plant's characteristics
Sola: For flax, for example, number of flax and rotten flax it yields, number of weedings required, number of seeds it gives, etc.
MomMouse: um maybe we should point out what those charactaristics are/
MomMouse: ok you did:0
Sola: For flowers, the genome controls the colors of the petals and leaves, size of the flower, how fast fertilization gets new bulbs, etc.
Sola: For vines, characteristics controlled by it's genome include how fast it gets residual sugar, whether makes tannin and how fast it makes tannin, maximum alcohol, etc.
Sola: The genes are represented by a sequence of bases
Sola: The solvents show us some of the bases as colors
Sola: We usually abbreviate colors to a single letter
Sola: O - Orange, R - Red, Y - Yellow, G - Green, U - Blue, V - Violet, K - black
Sola: The genome of a plant may look something like KORYORRVYUUVVK (fictional example)
Sola: Solvents will show us a short section of the genome
Sola: Milky solvent will give us 3 bases, clear gives 4, and glass gives 5
Sola: To use a solvent, two bulbs, seeds or vines of the same strain are put on the left and right splints in a greenhouse
Sola: A solvent can be applied, and gives results as a list of colors.
Sola: For example, putting Milky solvent on the example above may show: Yellow, Orange, Red
Sola: Which we would abbreviate YOR
Sola: When you apply the solvent, the splints are not used up, so you can keep applying solvents and seing different sections of the genome
Sola: We reconstruct the genome by taking the solvent results and piecing the overlaps together.
Sola: For example, if we see RYORR and YORRV, we might expect that RYORRV appears in the genome
ShanVizen: Why not constantly use glass solvent (it gives the most bases?) And if I can reapply, why not reapply one solvent 7-8 times and figure out the entire genome?
Sola: That is in fact more or less what we do -- the limitation on solvents is in having enough the right mushrooms and the patience to turn those into solvent.
Sola: Some genomes may be up to 80 characters long, though typically they are shorter.
Sola: It can take quite a few solvents to put together a larger genome. And we also don't have a good way of determining repeating sections that are 5 characters or longer.
Sola: But we are reasonably certain of the genomes of some stock rose and flax strains that we have been able to correlate to T1 Stressed Breeding data.
Sola: Characteristics are determined by the presence of a certain pattern of bases in the genome
Sola: So for example, for flax, each time GYGY appears in the genome, 1 flax is added to the yield
Sola: These can overlap, so for example GYGYGY would cause two flax to be added, because GYGY appears twice
Zatarg: Is there a limit to how many repeating gnomes you can have?
MomMouse: as a guess i wouldsay no
Sola: Not so far as we know, but we are limited in the ways we can manipulate the genes.
Sola: Shall we talk briefly about crossbreeding?
MomMouse: yes i think we should
Sola: In crossbreeding, the sequence of the genome of each parent is broken somewhere near the middle.
Sola: From one parent (left splint), the left hand side is combined with the right side of the other parent (right splint)
Sola: The "break" is not always in the middle, and is not always in the same place -- there is a random factor.
Sola: So, to give and example:
Sola: Let's say the left splint is AAAABBBB and the right splint is CCCCDDDD
Sola: There are a number of possible children we could get from this
Sola: AAAABBBB could be split AAA ABBBB, for example
Sola: or it could be split AAAAB BBB, or AAAA BBBB
Sola: Likewise for CCCCDDDD
Sola: Any of these from the left side of the left-splint parent could combine with ones from the right side of the right splint parent
Sola: So possible children would be AAADDD, or AAAABDDD, or AAAACCDDDD
BryceCicada: is it random or does it split the same each time?
MomMouse: it is random
Sola: So far as we know, it's random. Crossing the same strains again and again can give different results.
Sola: And as you can see, the genome can get shorter or longer as the plants are crossed
Sola: The stock strains (the original ones we started with) are different lengths to begin with.
Sola: Generally, we get more features we want in longer genomes, so we tend to keep those and breed them.
Sola: With the result that some highly crossbred specimens may may have rather long genomes.
ShanVizen: Does solvents hint at the length of the genome? Or only some sort subsequences?
Sola: We only get the length by piecing them together.
Sola: However, we have found that Black appears only (and always) as the start and end marker
Sola: So that gives us an anchor on each end to build from in reconstructing the sequence.
Sola: (And gives us a better idea when we are finished.)
ShanVizen: Might be jumping ahead of ourselves, but where do mutagenics come in?
Sola: Mutagenics does something to change the genes, but we are still working out exactly what that is.
Sola: To give an overview of how mutagenics works. Let's skip how mutagens are made for a second and talk about how they are used and what we see.
Sola: And come back to their production later
MomMouse: one problem we are having with that is a mutagen dont affect all 4 types of plants the same way
Sola: To use a mutagen, you put two splints (left and right) in a greenhouse and apply the mutagen.
Sola: The two splints may be the same strain, or may be different strains
Sola: When the mutagen is applied, the splints are used up, and two children are given, with consecutive numbers. (Player#6 and Player#7, for example)
Sola: The two children have different characteristics
ShanVizen: Even different from the parent(s)?
MomMouse: yes
Sola: Yes, if I cross 1 and 2 and get 3 and 4, they are all different
Sola: though they may share similarities
Sola: Sometimes there are no detectible differences
MomMouse: and might even be visibly duplicatesof the parent
Sola: We can investigate what the mutagens are doing by finding the genomes of the children with solvents, or indirectly by looking at visible changes
ShanVizen: Are there different types of mutagens (accoring to different recipes?) does applying the same mutagen twice to identical parents results in identical children?
Sola: OK, to circle back for a minute to how mutagens are produced.
MomMouse: no shan it doesnt
Sola: Mutagens are produced by a mutagenics lab. This involved trying different recipes and taking the results for analysis at a University where the tech is opened.
Sola: Each university that has the tech open is working on one particular recipe at any time.
Sola: To perform a mutagen trial, the following steps are done at the lab:
Sola: Start with a base of 3 water and 1 quicksilver
Cappu: 7 water :)
Sola: Ah, yes, I've been breathing too much solvent. :)
Sola: Add moss of one type. The quantity can be from 1 to 7 debens.
Sola: Add 1 to 7 mushrooms of one type
Sola: At this point, you can either keep repeating the "add mushrooms" step to add more mushrooms, or add 1 salt to mark the recipe as completed.
Sola: Typically, you will then get a Failed Mutagen which can be taken to the University for analysis.
Sola: When you submit a failed mutagen at a university, the scientists respond with clues about what is right and what is wrong in the recipe you tried.
Sola: Your failed mutagen is compared to that university's current recipe, and it will tell you things like "too much moss", "not enough mushrooms", "a required type of mushroom is missing", etc.
Sola: Through repeated tests, the recipe can be figured out.
Sola: When the correct recipe has been cooked, that lab changes. It no longer can be used for testing. It produces the mutagen from that recipe.
Sola: A drop accumulates about once every 3 to 4 hours and can be taken from the lab, which is now a mutagen dispenser.
Sola: The type of mutagen is known by the moss characterstics that were required in the recipe.
Sola: For example, Mutagen: calico, striped, phosphorescent
Sola: When a drop of the mutagen is presented at the university, that recipe is solved, and that university starts work on a new recipe.
ShanVizen: Can others tune their lab to the same recipe?
ShanVizen: Or must they use a new one?
Sola: So far as we can guess, the solved recipe can be repeated in another lab. However labs are so expensive, it seems unadvisable.
MomMouse: while labs can make the same recipe , the cost of building the lab suggests that we should use different recipes for each
Sola: OK, now back to an earlier question -- I think our results have shown that repetitions taking the same kind of mutagen, and using the same parents on the same splits will predictably produce the same children.
MomMouse: any questions so far?
MomMouse: ok
MomMouse: that is news to me:)
Sola: I believe that is what Amtep was finding with flax experiments, but it needs many repetitions to really prove it.
Sola: Also, I think results so far suggest that mutagens change some genes, but do not change the total length of the genome.
ShanVizen: Does mutagenics allow us create combinations that these far has been impossible?
MomMouse: um sola that isnt quite true
Sola: OK, I've been away for a few days, so not up on everything. Please jump in.
MomMouse: in one mutation of pantomine it did in fact add an o
Sola: Interesting ...
MomMouse: on its sib it changed the YYY to OOO
MomMouse: and since pantomine is a rose that we have correlated to t1 stress-breeding im fairly certain that this is a truly important finding
Sola: So, the areas of ongoing work are: building labs to solve new recipes and make new kinds of mutagens, experiments with mutagens to produce new strains, anaylzing strains by using solvents (and for lilies, filling in what we don't know about which genes control which characteristics)
Sola: trying to determine what each mutagen does (and how they differ)
Zatarg: And opening mutagenics in regions
MomMouse: yes as it seems not all moss combos are available yet and a uni can get stuck for want of getting a mutagen wirking
MomMouse: working*
ShanVizen: How can the "little people" help? (Those who don't have rare mushrooms, quicksilver, and labs)
Sola: One big thing we need is moss of particular types
Sola: Some recipes get stuck at the stage where we know what kind of moss is required and can't get our hands on any
MomMouse: bless towers , collect mosses and shrooms, and donate them to mutants anonymous
MomMouse: red sand donations would be nice also
Sola: Another thing, for those that like puzzles, is to look at data posted on the wiki and try to help make sense of it.
MomMouse: yes please
ShanVizen: Can you explain a bit on how moss changes work?
Sola: When you drink from a tower, and it's been more than an hour since the last time, you have some chance of changing the characteristics of the moss.
MomMouse: if there is anyone out there listening who can do so please chat me so i can get you over here to do so
Sola: Players appear to have particular characteristics that they have a chance of adding, and some characteristics they have a chance of removing.
Sola: What I've been doing is blessing tower, and when I see a change, keep track of what characteristics I've added or removed. (I keep this in my info, just for a place to put it).
Zatarg: how long does the change last for?
Sola: The change lasts until someone else comes along and blesses the tower to change it again, or the aqueduct runs dry, and it's reset to green.
MomMouse: um sola ive "heard" unconfirmed that each time it says you have changed the char a bit you did but its like 1/16? of a change and wont actually change it till it hits a full number
Sola: That's interesting. I know there seems to be some chance to change or not change the moss.
MomMouse: if anyone can confirm,disprove this therory it would help
Zatarg: that would make sense ive never noticed any changes when i bless
MomMouse: ok lets look at this
Sola: So far, I've never noticed a characteristic think I "add" being removed, or one I "remove" being added. So there seems to be something to that.
MomMouse: say a tower is at 16/16 green, 1/16 calico,15/16 spongy
MomMouse: so you bless it and say your char are +1 phos -1 calico +1 spongy
MomMouse: that tower would then be green 16/16 16/16 spongy 1/16 phos
MomMouse: um dang 16/16 green 16/16 spongy*
Sola: Yeah, I see what you mean.
MomMouse: and the moss it made would be green,spongy
Sola: The types of mosses we need will have three required characteristics (must have all 3) and three damaging characteristics (may not have any of these)
MomMouse: but this is only a therory at thispoint
Sola: It can have extra attributes, as long as they are not one of the damaging ones.
Sola: For a couple of weeks, we have known that the recipe at Sinai needs moss that is: calico, phosphorescent, striped, but NOT: green, fuzzy, mottled.
Sola: But we have not been able to get such a moss.
Sola: A question to think about that is far beyond our current data: Do the characteristics of the mutagen's moss type tell us something predictable about what that mutagen will do?
Sola: The tech could be quite powerful, but needs a lot of groundwork.
MomMouse: also ive heard rumors of mutagens made that are not roeported
MomMouse: if anyone is making a mutagen that hasnt been listed please please report any testing done with it
Sola: That's certainly possible. In the best interests of all of Egypt, I hope we don't see too many labs that duplicate the same mutagen(s).
MomMouse: you can keep the recipe a secret if you like and sell/trade the mutagen, but please let us know what it does or trade some to us so we can test it
MomMouse: we are trying to find out which mutagens will help uscreate the reqs needed for getting the rest of the basic roses unlocked
Sola: Those interested in working on this research are invited to join the guild: mutants anonyomous, at 2326 2308 (just north of RSO chariot)
MomMouse: anyone with a lab or interested in mutating flowers, please please join mutants anonymous guild
ShanVizen: Any more questions pending? :)
Sola: None at the moment ...
Sola: I guess that wraps up this talk for now. Thanks all. Contact members of mutants anonymous if you have more questions.