Since I hate reading logs from the bottom to the top, I reversed the order and posted it here. :) Balthazarr
14:04:33 - Pharaoh: ---
14:07:33 - Pharaoh: Hey guys!
14:08:11 - Pharaoh: Ok, so I have the ENN microphone on in Area Host mode.
14:08:16 - Toba: hugs otter
14:08:20 - Zintwana: there ya go
14:08:21 - Zintwana: :)
14:08:37 - Al-Bilal: doesn't look like kalar or macphisto are around :(
14:08:38 - Toba: Hey Jem :)
14:08:48 - JemGirl: hey you
14:08:53 - JemGirl: hey all
14:08:53 - Zintwana: hehe
14:08:59 - Hasani: howdy folks
14:09:00 - JemGirl: Ottter
14:10:43 - Zintwana: wow thanks Jem
14:10:50 - Pharaoh: Ok, so first off, welcome everyone...
14:11:18 - Pharaoh: I see that already 5 monuments are underway...
14:11:35 - Pharaoh: Thought, The Human Body, Leadership, Architecture, and Worship.
14:11:41 - Toba: Hey after this we should all line up and take an Oracle screenshot
14:11:54 - Al-Bilal: Conf is almost done too
14:11:54 - Pharaoh: Toba: Good idea.
14:12:15 - FaceAnkh: Worship is still fighting aqueducts for the last moss type (hairy slimy spotted) :)
14:12:17 - Pharaoh: Ah, that's great. Just no site up yet?
14:12:18 - Toba: thanks
14:12:41 - Al-Bilal: well, we built a site to get the reqs but we haven't decided on a final location yet ;)
14:13:03 - Pharaoh: Ok.
14:13:29 - Pharaoh: First off, I'd like to describe what will happen in the case of competing monuments.
14:13:43 - Pharaoh: The case where, for instance, two Worship Monuments were to be built.
14:14:16 - thanks mom hehe
14:14:25 - Zintwana: whoops
14:14:53 - Pharaoh: There is now a measure of a Monument's "Significance". This is a score, so to speak, for the monument itself.
14:16:23 - Pharaoh: The significance of a Monument of (for instance) Worship, is the Discipline level of all supporters, added together. Oracles are 7, Sages 6, Masters 5, etc.
14:17:01 - Pharaoh: So when an Oracle first builds a Monument Construction Site, the Significance is 7.
14:17:54 - Toba: So if an Oracle joins as Sage thats another 7 points?
14:17:56 - Pharaoh: If they are able to attract only Sages of Worship to fill the Sage spots, and Masters of Worship to fill the 4 Master slots, etc, then the Significance of the completed Monument will be 247.
14:18:15 - Pharaoh: If an Oracle joins as sage, that's one extra point.
14:18:47 - Pharaoh: If you had a Monument supported by 127 Oracles, the Significance would be 889, which is the maximum.
14:19:12 - Toba: that would be something
14:20:24 - Pharaoh: A Monument's Significance will show up in ATITD 3, and I will try to compute the Significance of the ATITD 1 Monuments as well, so that those are shown.
14:20:48 - Toba: very nice
14:21:40 - Pharaoh: A final "score" for the 20+ months that each Discipline has invested.
14:22:10 - Pharaoh: And my extension, a score for the entire Tale.
14:22:32 - Pharaoh: It may not be fair to think of it that way of course...
14:23:17 - Pharaoh: One Tale's Tests may be harder or easier than another's. A limited-pass Test may be swapped for a fixed-goal (unlimited pass), etc.
14:24:26 - Pharaoh: Anyway, this new Significance Score is already active. I'll give current Significance scores for the monuments as they currently stand:
14:24:30 - Pharaoh: Thought is at 21.
14:24:39 - Pharaoh: The Human Body at 422
14:24:43 - Pharaoh: Leadership is 77
14:24:48 - Pharaoh: Architecture is 532
14:24:58 - Pharaoh: Worship is at 7.
14:25:00 - FaceAnkh: *coughs*
14:25:05 - Toba: lol
14:25:05 - laughs!
14:25:08 - FaceAnkh: (it's a test site)
14:25:15 - Pharaoh: Understood.
14:25:21 - Al-Bilal: Is this just a way to avoid the bad feelings associated with 'Failing the telling'?
14:26:03 - Pharaoh: Will you fail the telling?
14:26:16 - Al-Bilal: well, there are no sages of Art yet, so probably
14:26:20 - Asheara: no art masters or oracles....
14:26:33 - FaceAnkh: depends on what one thinks of as a fail, I guess :)
14:26:34 - Asheara: err ya sages or oracles
14:26:34 - Toba: Does that really mean that we have failed?
14:26:51 - Al-Bilal: of course, I'm using the term 'fail' to mean that we don't build all 7 monuments...
14:26:59 - Toba: If we get even 1 monument up I don't call that failed
14:27:04 - Pharaoh: It's certainly not as complete a win as having built all 7 Monuments.
14:27:06 - Al-Bilal: you can all use other terms if you want ;)
14:27:15 - Asheara: body is going up this afternoon
14:27:37 - Esme: maybe the telling failed us :)..on the other hand maybe not..looks nervously at Pharaoh
14:27:57 - Al-Bilal: I like the idea of having a tie-break between competing monuments. but having a score for the telling seems like a consolation prize...
14:28:55 - Asheara: I'm not sure I like being compared to T1, they had amnesty etc in order to complete the monuments
14:29:06 - Al-Bilal: it shouldn't be about the score, the tests will change so you can't compare scores. we've heard that already
14:29:24 - Toba: thats true
14:29:41 - Al-Bilal: I have always liked the fact that there's a chance of failure in this game
14:29:45 - Pharaoh: Right. Really just 2 motivations behind it:
14:29:47 - Al-Bilal: that's what makes it different
14:29:52 - Esme: worship should always be about passing as many others as you can anyway....wouldnt be fair to like compare worship to conflict or another discipline for sure
14:30:02 - Al-Bilal: exactly esme
14:30:43 - Asheara: architecture will probably always have the highest score, it's the one most people pass the most tests in
14:32:18 - Toba: Hey Zarrehp
14:32:31 - Psychodelica: hi Z
14:32:34 - Pharaoh: A tie-breaker in the case of 2 completed monuments - a way to say which Test gets implemented. (A 2nd Test may also get implemented, but that would be at my discretion, and would come after all other Legacy Tests including Conflict, are implemented.)
14:32:48 - M:Zintwana: Winning I think is a very loose term for a MMORPG such as ATITD
14:32:49 - M:Zintwana: I would say overall it's the experience that counts
14:33:12 - Esme: so in other words we cant build more monuments to get more of the tests we'd like to have?
14:33:13 - Lindie: this really isnt conducive to getting newbs to play they will get left out so the monuments spots can be filled by higher ranks
14:33:22 - for myself, I won the telling, if I had a great time and enjoyed it, even if it means no monuments ....
14:33:29 - Pharaoh: Esme: No, because there's only 1 of me.
14:33:48 - thank god for that ;)
14:34:20 - Pharaoh: The 2nd motivation is to give meaning to passing additional Tests when the Monument's higher ranks are already filled.
14:34:22 - Toba: Didn't you hear? we're having you cloned for tale 3
14:34:42 - FaceAnkh: Lindie: only if we care about the score more than we should do :) besides, I think it's unlikely that we'll see two monuments of the same type (except maybe arch)
14:35:13 - Al-Bilal: hmm, I don't really understand why that second motivation is necessary
14:35:29 - Toba: I think most Egyptians are smart enough to know how to interpet the scores
14:35:31 - Esme: I think we have always deferred a bit more to higher rank as the system is currently anyway. Even if other oracles and sages etc had to take lower rank
14:35:36 - M:Sabt-Pestnu: provides a hook for the next telling ... "a flawed civilization"
14:35:43 - M:Teao: ATITD is probably the only MMO where there is a concept of winning :)
14:36:00 - Yes, Teao, and I like that...
14:36:14 - Esme: I think its a protection for Pharaoh not to have to implement more than one test per discipline. He only takes the top ranked monument's test in each discipline
14:36:19 - exactly, but with a concept of winning there has to be a chance of losing
14:37:02 - Al-Bilal: how does this help with that problem?
14:37:05 - That sort of leads into the "feel" I want to acheive with ATITD 3...
14:37:05 - Asheara: Suppose we choose a test that is too hard to code etc, how is a new test for next tale chosen?
14:38:09 - (Wasn't exactly planning to address this today, but I can go into it a bit.)
14:38:14 - Toba: no one, since the ranks are not on the monuments
14:38:39 - Toba: or are they?
14:38:39 - ATITD 1 had a frantic pace early on. Lots of people burned out...
14:38:55 - toba: I think they are if you go to the T1 monument sites
14:39:15 - ATITD 2 has had a slower/ponderous pace, and I didn't like that aspect. I was trying to solve the burnout problem of course.
14:39:43 - burnout is infinitely better than snail pace
14:40:36 - Al-Bilal: zisoni, dragyn, ajars, safira, rehpic, hekatef, sigil ;)
14:40:41 - And I have concluded that there's no way to solve both problems, so ATITD is planned to go back to the fast ATITD 1 pace. I'll give lots of warnings for everyone to pace *themselves*, but the game itself won't "enforce" that.
14:40:54 - Esme: interesting where all those people are now :)
14:41:26 - Al-Bilal: 4 still playing, including one with a different name
14:42:08 - So instead of waiting for techs to be released, most/all coded techs will be unlockable on day 1, in theory. They're linked like in ATITD 1.
14:42:09 - Esme: goals met I suppose though :)
14:43:05 - So you can't just go and research Mutagenics without unlocking the prerequisites, but there's no switch that I'll ned to throw.
14:43:10 - burn out stepped in too
14:43:12 - And the concept has been extended.
14:43:21 - I like the idea of having the pace be dictated by the players
14:43:33 - that's excellent
14:43:38 - Zintwana: Will this allow T3 to have more of a story line?
14:43:39 - what about test releases?
14:43:49 - Tests also have to be unlocked, and there are 28 Tests available at release, plus the 7 Initiations.
14:44:00 - Zintwana: In other words Devs and GMs will be able to have more time to run events?
14:44:12 - Pharaoh, as a body person I am wondering if you will have all or most of the body tests out at the start of the next tale?
14:44:22 - M:Teao: Is there a date for the test review meet yet?
14:44:37 - It would be nice to look for all the things in the desert at the same time :)
14:44:48 - 28 Tests, 4 per Discipline.
14:45:06 - hmm thats not all of them
14:45:13 - No.
14:45:25 - better than 1 per couple of months in all disciplines combined :)
14:45:33 - And actually, Harmony is planned to have 6 unlockable initially, so actually 30 tests.
14:45:33 - Lindie: i think he is sleeping :P
14:45:45 - Asheara: he can't do all of them, some tests have not been chosen yet ;)
14:46:02 - Pharaoh: (Been chatting directly into ENN.)
14:46:25 - Pharaoh: I'll chat in main, probably better since ENN picks that up.
14:46:35 - yes...
14:46:46 - M:Teao: if tech 1 leads to tech 2, and tech 1 opens in one uni, does tech 2 become available for research in all unis or just that one?
14:46:53 - Esme: I think Harmony is going to be a great discipline honestly :)
14:47:01 - Pharaoh: Just the one.
14:47:14 - FaceAnkh: nod, I really like the sound of it too (though I'm biased) :)
14:47:21 - Pharaoh: Ok, player meet, since we're wandering among topics.
14:47:39 - Psychodelica: will conflict discipline totally disapear ? I mean, won't there be any opportunities to play Yokir or so ?
14:47:49 - Psychodelica: even just for fun
14:47:58 - Toba: He's already said they will be used as events
14:48:03 - Pharaoh: The plan is to have it in Pittsburgh, mid/late summer.
14:48:36 - Toba: So well into tale 3?
14:48:51 - FaceAnkh: so the likely schedule for implementing the Legacy Tests would be later in the telling? :)
14:49:00 - Pharaoh: Well, that's 90% the plan. I actually considered having it at a clothing-optional resort in California.
14:49:12 - Al-Bilal: w00t!
14:49:16 - Toba: lol
14:49:24 - FaceAnkh: that'd hit the dev-shirt sales :S
14:49:25 - Toba: I don't think I'll be going to that
14:49:25 - Hasani: lol
14:49:54 - Al-Bilal: I think I'm already a member of that resort ;)
14:50:15 - JemGirl: mid/late summer I can do that
14:50:28 - Otter: please not lat aug
14:50:30 - Otter: late
14:50:30 - JemGirl: just don't make it end of june/july
14:50:40 - JemGirl: going to Alaska
14:50:40 - Pharaoh: The place I went to do the initial brainstorming/design for Tales of Alvin Maker
14:51:00 - Pharaoh: http://www.harbin.org if anyone is interested.
14:51:25 - Otter: nooooo
14:51:36 - JemGirl: Calif
14:51:40 - JemGirl: I would go
14:51:55 - Otter: only those with bodies will go
14:52:03 - Asheara: california's out for me
14:52:17 - JemGirl: Otter: you have seen me
14:52:41 - JemGirl: you come hang with me
14:52:42 - Otter: you saw me
14:53:01 - Otter: everyone will know where the tattoo is...
14:53:12 - O.o
14:53:18 - FaceAnkh: Pharaoh: to get back on track a little, the likely timeframe for implementing the Legacy Tests would be later in the telling?
14:53:23 - JemGirl: O.o
14:53:31 - Pharaoh: Anyway, send me a /tell or an email with thoughts on the idea if you'd like...
14:53:54 - FaceAnkh: some of the tests might be more or less sensitive to implementation time (certainly some of the ideas were)
14:53:59 - Asheara: the idea of a clothing optional resort??
14:54:31 - Pharaoh: Ok, so back to the topic.
14:54:41 - Al-Bilal: there's a topic? :P
14:54:47 - Toba: lol\
14:55:09 - Tweetiti: lol
14:55:11 - Asheara: what happens if a chosen legacy test is not implementable?
14:55:22 - Toba: Ho about we have the meet in florida... between hurricanes
14:55:40 - Pharaoh: I want to discuss Legacy Tests in case the Oracles have questions about technical feasibility, my thoughts on each Test, etc.
14:56:13 - Toba: Hard to do, since many of the monuments have not picked a test yet
14:56:21 - Asheara: aye because we're currently voting on tests and if one isn't feasible, we should throw it out of the mix
14:56:28 - Pharaoh: Well, this doesn't have to be the last such chat...
14:56:29 - Toba: For example Arch and lead are currently voting on it
14:56:38 - FaceAnkh: http://wiki.atitd.net/tale2/Monument_Tests is the complete list
14:56:39 - Asheara: and thouoght
14:56:45 - Asheara: thought
14:56:55 - Toba: what thought is voting? no one told me
14:56:55 - Esme: If a test isnt feasbile it can be modified anyway...should vote for the test you want
14:56:57 - Pharaoh: And if you'd like my thoughts on a given Test proposal, I'd be glad to discuss that.
14:57:06 - FaceAnkh: I think only two of the Worship tests would need Teppy to check them for feasible or not
14:57:24 - Pharaoh: FaceAnkh - should we start with Worship?
14:57:24 - FaceAnkh: but perhaps the most useful thing to start with would be giving a general indication of what is and isn't feasible?
14:58:29 - Toba: Body had already picked it's test and conflict only has one idea on the wiki, so those might be good starters
14:58:33 - FaceAnkh: sure, happy to point you to the bits I think you might want to check :) we've not picked a specific test yet, so we can't go into too much detail
14:59:05 - Al-Bilal: there's a couple more conflict test ideas that haven't been put onto the wiki yet
14:59:05 - FaceAnkh: if you want to look at the Worship ones, the Tests you probably want to check are Ritual Dance and Miracles
14:59:06 - JemGirl: Body picked Oyster catcher so hopes we can do the swimming
14:59:13 - FaceAnkh: http://wiki.atitd.net/tale2/Monument_Tests/The_Test_Of_The_Ritual_Dance
14:59:17 - FaceAnkh: http://wiki.atitd.net/tale2/Monument_Tests/The_Test_Of_Miracles
14:59:29 - FaceAnkh: http://wiki.atitd.net/tale2/Monument_Tests/The_Test_Of_The_Oyster_Catcher is Oyster (Body)
14:59:48 - Pharaoh: Ok, reading Ritual Dance now...
15:00:28 - Toba: needs some yokir tables here while we wait on pharaoh
15:00:29 - FaceAnkh: the issue you might have with Ritual Dance is that it involves timing and coordinating some actions - would be nice to know how feasible that sounds :)
15:00:45 - Asheara: oysters for pearls
15:02:11 - Pharaoh: Ok, Ritual Dance is totally doable. I'd rather use new emotes specific to this Test - no need to recycle old ones.
15:02:23 - FaceAnkh: great :)
15:02:31 - Toba: new emotes! woot
15:02:49 - Toba: lolthank you otter :)
15:02:55 - Pharaoh: My only critique of the Test is that there is no paradox to it...
15:03:03 - Toba: Although Teppy is a faster reader then I thought :)
15:03:16 - Pharaoh: IOW, you do the rituals as proscribed, and you pass.
15:03:22 - FaceAnkh: the other test, Miracles, has some pretty strong stat bonuses - not a problem with coding, but I thought you might perhaps have a gameplay balance consideration there
15:03:47 - FaceAnkh: yes, with Ritual Dance, the difficulty is mainly in the coordination and setup
15:03:54 - Pharaoh: So, let me look at existing Worship Tests...
15:04:11 - FaceAnkh: the idea was to bring a sense of ceremony to the discipline :)
15:04:22 - Pharaoh: Ok, yes, that's a good thing.
15:04:31 - Pharaoh: It does seem to have a Worship feel.
15:04:55 - Al-Bilal: hellinar had the idea to make gaining rank in the worship discipline into a ceremony
15:04:58 - FaceAnkh: Hellinar also suggested using it as a passing ritual if it didn't make it as a test - something you'd do in a group to actually get the zap after completing some tests
15:05:08 - Al-Bilal: hehe, yes that idea
15:05:37 - FaceAnkh: one of the best experiences I've had in Worship was at the end of Festivals when we all zapped together - doing a ritual to zap would give that feeling too :)
15:05:59 - Toba: (... and crash half the clients :P)
15:07:08 - FaceAnkh: crashing together is fun too ;)
15:07:17 - JemGirl: but have to say that was the fun part
15:07:34 - Toba: Zapping (or crashing) is always the fun part
15:07:41 - Pharaoh: So anyway, I think it's a solid Test, if there were some small paradox to it it would be better, but should be fun regardless.
15:08:01 - Pharaoh: Reading the Test of Miracles...
15:08:17 - Toba: I'm sure you will thinkof something to make it more evil Pharaoh :P
15:08:34 - Toba: We have faith in you
15:09:02 - Esme: I hope that wouldnt be the goal of a worship test...and that the test would be implemented in the spirit in which it is written. :)
15:09:12 - FaceAnkh: hehe, maybe, but it has to stay within the constraints of the original designer's intentions - which is what the player meet/test review is about :)
15:09:47 - Toba: Yes, but it does need to be hard enough right?
15:10:26 - FaceAnkh: that varies a lot amongst the existing tests - just needs to be a balance :)
15:10:34 - Pharaoh: This one is very good...
15:10:38 - Esme: that is the responsiblilty of the discipline and its oracle to ensure the test is appropriate
15:10:45 - Pharaoh: Everything is codeable...
15:11:16 - Pharaoh: And there's certainly a paradox - the whole notion of sacrificing.
15:11:27 - JemGirl: woohoo
15:11:42 - FaceAnkh: I think you'd like the others too, though I don't think there's anything in them that would be uncodeable :)
15:12:10 - FaceAnkh: perhaps we could chat about them all (maybe at another time) so we cover everything fairly :)
15:13:32 - Pharaoh: I can see that it doesn't have quite the "ceremony" of Ritual Dance, but I think the Worship feeling is there because of the notion of sacrifice. (Which is something that ATITD hasn't really explored much, and should.)
15:14:00 - Pharaoh: (IOW, totally selfless sacrifice.)
15:14:32 - Pharaoh: I can look at one more Worship Test if you'd like, or we can move on to another Discipline.
15:14:42 - JemGirl: like to know your views on Oyster Catcher since we are building the monument today
15:15:05 - Pharaoh: Ok, sure. I did look at this one briefly, but let me review it.
15:15:25 - FaceAnkh: I couldn't pick another test on code feasibility grounds (so it'd be unfair for me to choose another), but would love to know what T2 Worship Tests you're expecting to remove from T3
15:18:18 - Pharaoh: Well Marriage is being removed. (And replaced with a different Test, also called "Marriage", in Harmony.)
15:18:33 - Pharaoh: And then if I was picking a 2nd Test to remove it would probably be Beacons.
15:19:21 - JemGirl: will have to keep in hiding when festivals comes out again
15:19:29 - FaceAnkh: ok, some of the test proposals are aimed at specific existing tests (Hallowed Ground is like Festivals, for example)
15:19:56 - FaceAnkh: so if that was chosen, while it does work with Festivals, there would be two tests similar if both were retained
15:20:02 - Toba: You did such a good job Jem :)
15:20:44 - Toba: huh?
15:20:49 - Tweetiti: bah I love beacons :)
15:20:51 - Pharaoh: Ok, so the meat of this Test is like an old handheld game called "Merlin"
15:21:11 - Zintwana: has oysters been discussed?
15:21:15 - Zintwana: any questions?
15:21:18 - Zintwana: sorry was afk there
15:21:21 - JemGirl: gettting to it
15:21:23 - Toba: Pharaoh are you talking about body now?
15:21:38 - Zintwana: yup
15:21:42 - Pharaoh: Swimming is doable, though the interface may be different than just clicking where you want to swim to.
15:21:53 - Toba: Pharaoh would I be feasible to code controlled swimming (like walking), as a reward for oyster catcher?
15:21:55 - Pharaoh: Yes, this is Oyster Catcher.
15:22:17 - Toba: Oh so it might be more like ferry boats?
15:22:30 - Toba: Yes if we can walk on water now, why can't we swim?
15:23:15 - Toba: if you go off the edge of the map you can walk on water
15:23:32 - Pharaoh: (one sec, phone)
15:24:15 - Toba: You get reception all the way out here in the red sea?
15:25:23 - Zintwana: sorrry bout this but got to go afk again - if anyone has qs please send me a chat
15:25:24 - Pharaoh: Back
15:25:52 - Pharaoh: Ok, so the interface would probably be something along the lines of "Go Swimming"
15:26:02 - Pharaoh: And then a widget to swim N/S/E/W
15:26:13 - JemGirl: That sounds good
15:26:21 - Toba: that sounds better then ferries
15:26:28 - Pharaoh: The swimming itself can be animated, as can the diving.
15:26:29 - Al-Bilal: hotkeyed to wasd?
15:26:35 - Toba: would pressing the button move you like moving a chest?
15:26:46 - JemGirl: but like Toba said can we have this as a reward in the end
15:26:46 - Toba: hotkeys would be nice
15:26:59 - Hasani: cool, actually swimming would be excellent
15:27:04 - Pharaoh: Yes, I think that swimming as a reward would be good...
15:27:13 - JemGirl: Excellant
15:27:13 - Tweetiti: would that mena that the swimming would only be possible for' the test or in game also?
15:27:13 - Hasani: yes
15:27:18 - Esme: sounds very fun to me :)
15:27:24 - Pharaoh: Though I think it would spoil some stuff if you cauld swim endlessly/anywhere.
15:27:29 - Toba: Body has always been about being able to do something new with your avatar
15:27:45 - JemGirl: now the idea of the Pearl necklace you think that is good
15:27:53 - JemGirl: and doable
15:27:56 - Toba: you could get tired, r not swim in deep water
15:28:21 - JemGirl: yeh swimming esp for bug test might not be good so you may want to limit it
15:28:25 - Al-Bilal: or swim in deeper water or for longer with higher stats
15:28:25 - Pharaoh: So maybe there would be a maximum depth that you could swim in, or you could only swim 21 coordinates from where you started, or so far from land, or some combination of those.
15:28:33 - Psychodelica: is this swimming also clothing-optional ???
15:28:43 - Pharaoh: lol
15:28:43 - Hasani: lol yes you pick up too many oysters and start to sink. then we need the life preserver tech
15:28:45 - JemGirl: rofl Pshy
15:28:49 - JemGirl: Psy
15:29:11 - Al-Bilal: new mouth-to-mouth animation will be needed ^_^
15:29:17 - Toba: lol
15:29:33 - JemGirl: and only your signicant other can do it
15:29:40 - Asheara: mebbe gain skill in swimming so you can swim further or deeper
15:29:48 - Al-Bilal: where's the fun in that jem? ;)
15:29:59 - Pharaoh: One thing that is not clear...
15:30:00 - JemGirl: bad
15:30:06 - Pharaoh: Is how the oyster beds would be found in the first place.
15:30:14 - Toba: it would be nice if speed could affect swimspeed also
15:30:31 - JemGirl: Zint has RL things
15:30:51 - Pharaoh: So IOW, you find an oyster bed, then you solve a puzzle.
15:31:03 - Hasani: i would think swimming speed/efficiency should be independent of foot speed
15:31:29 - Pharaoh: That's a good mechanic - similar to catching Otters.
15:32:31 - Sounds good to me, but we really should ask Zintw.
15:32:37 - JemGirl: Well when Zint comes back will have him talk you Pharaoh see if you guys can figure something out for that part
15:32:41 - Pharaoh: Ok
15:33:07 - Pharaoh: Next Test - is the Conflict Oracle present?
15:33:28 - Al-Bilal: we haven't decided on an oracle yet, myself and macphisto are the candidates though :)
15:33:53 - Al-Bilal: and we haven't decided on a test either, probably because of the obscene amounts of marble required for the conf monument ;)
15:34:04 - Al-Bilal: takes some time to get all that done :)
15:34:17 - Stop whining, I have you 7 marble already ;)
15:34:24 - *gave
15:34:33 - Pharaoh: Ok, should we delay the Conflict portion of this chat?
15:34:45 - Al-Bilal: yes, I think that would be best
15:34:51 - I would like to know... what happens with the conflict test?
15:34:53 - Tweetiti: THere is no Leadership Oracle around either
15:34:54 - Hasani: al, i'm sure i have some marble to donate. i'll check your reqs after
15:35:02 - Tweetiti: we could do that too
15:35:09 - only serpentine marble needed now for the conf monument
15:35:17 - Pharaoh: I see just the one Conflict Test idea...
15:35:25 - Pharaoh: Are there others under consideration?
15:35:35 - Al-Bilal: yep, there are a couple of others but they haven't been put onto the wiki yet
15:35:49 - Pharaoh: Ok, so let's wait on Conflict.
15:36:26 - Toba: that just leaves Thought and Arch right?
15:36:29 - Pharaoh: And no Leadership Oracle here currently?
15:36:35 - Toba: nope
15:36:36 - Tweetiti: no:(
15:36:36 - Pharaoh: Yeah, so Arch and Thought.
15:36:41 - Toba: I'm a student tho :)
15:36:55 - Gumby: Voting for arch is underway, but i can give you the top 2 currently to look at (in no particular order)
15:37:17 - Gumby: http://wiki.atitd.net/tale2/Users/Sedelyan/The_Test_Of_The_Contracted_Carousel
15:37:29 - Gumby: http://wiki.atitd.net/tale2/Users/Gumby/The_Test_Of_Ka
15:38:02 - Hasani: which gives me the opportunity to remind folks listening in to ENN to chat me their votes for arch test
15:38:32 - Asheara: and chat their votes for thoought tests to TheMazeEcho
15:39:10 - Pharaoh: Reading Contracted Carousel now.
15:39:21 - likes that one :)
15:40:32 - Pharaoh: Ok, this sounds like a fun Test...
15:40:47 - Pharaoh: It's an obvious swap for Megalopolis.
15:41:41 - Toba: Which is probably good since mega isn't that useful anymore
15:41:42 - Al-Bilal: it's a shame that mega went from the favourite Arch test (according to a poll on the forums) to a test whose reward is barely used...
15:41:51 - Pharaoh: I can do the carousel itself as colorable (meaning, that the colors will show up on the various platforms), but the animals will have to be fixed colors. (No pink zebras, for instance.)
15:42:40 - Gumby: randomness of materials is okay as well?
15:42:41 - Toba: have a few beers and they will look pink :P
15:42:52 - Pharaoh: Yes, random or semi-random materials are fine.
15:43:08 - Toba: It sounds like a fun group project
15:43:09 - Pharaoh: I'll work with the Oracle at implementation time to get parameters for those.
15:44:21 - Pharaoh: And it's one where I may even be able to do 4- and 5-tier carousels, or some extra super-hard animals, just for those that want to build something beyond basic pass.
15:44:38 - Good idea :D
15:44:51 - Pharaoh: So I think this is good. No paradox, but especially for Arch, it's important to have some fixed-goal Tests.
15:45:05 - Pharaoh: Reading the Test of Ka
15:45:24 - Pharaoh: (Oh one other thing - the Artists will love Test of the Contracted Carousel)
15:45:27 - Tweetiti: donc c'est pas mal pas de paradox mais pour l'archi c'est biend 'avoir des buts fixes d'avance
15:45:30 - Tweetiti: oops
15:46:31 - Tweetiti: I'm translating this chat on Radio Moquette in French
15:47:09 - great :)
15:47:41 - Pharaoh: Ok, there's something very cool in this Test if I'm reading it right...
15:48:52 - Pharaoh: Is it correct that the Architect says ahead of time how many boxes they'll build, but they don't get told the requirements (which types of goodies) the boxes will need until after all "bets" are in?
15:49:44 - Gumby: The box requirements and the item requirements are made known when you meditate, but you don't know the points that they are worth until the end of the week
15:50:12 - Pharaoh: Hmm - isn't passing pretty random then?
15:50:19 - Gumby: and the box requirements would be random, like festival requirements for each person
15:50:19 - its up to you and your ability to make boxes as to how many and which gods you build to
15:50:53 - Gumby: people could gamble on one god or build evenly, but yes there is some randomness to it
15:51:20 - if you got lucky and built 100 boxes to the god that was worth 7 points you would get 700 points
15:51:41 - but someone else could build 100 to the god that was only worth 1 point and only get 100 points
15:52:05 - and nobody know which god is worth what amount that week
15:52:06 - Toba: I like the cogs
15:52:09 - Pharaoh: Ok, can I suggest an addition/change to this?
15:52:13 - Gumby: we added several things to get new players a better chance of passing
15:52:17 - yes
15:52:24 - Gumby: like the 10% score reduction each week
15:52:31 - Gumby: sure :)
15:52:53 - Toba: Gumby the way it's worded now it sounds like that happens only after 14, not every 2 weeks
15:53:09 - Toba: err week
15:53:09 - Pharaoh: Suppose there were 21 gods, and each one always wanted a certain set of goods...
15:53:51 - Toba: lol
15:53:54 - Pharaoh: So maybe Ra always wants a pair of 2-output gearboxes, and Sobek always wants 500 deben of reddish paint.
15:54:07 - Toba: does egypt even have names for 21 gods?
15:54:29 - and each item would still be place in a box?
15:54:52 - you see the trick is in the ability to make enough boxes
15:54:59 - Pharaoh: And you knew ahead of time that the chosen god will be one of three.
15:55:25 - Pharaoh: So you know, for instance, that the chosen god will be either Ra, Maat, or Bes, and you know what each of those gods likes.
15:55:44 - Pharaoh: You then say how many boxes you're going to promise to fill.
15:56:14 - Pharaoh: And then the god is revealed and you have to keep your promise in order to get points.
15:56:46 - Gumby: let me confer with Lindie :)
15:56:53 - Pharaoh: Use the scoring and passing system exactly as you've specified, and the 10% point reduction.
15:57:20 - Gumby: would the box requirements still change?
15:57:30 - Hasani: that's interesting and it still retains the gambling element
15:57:46 - Gumby: the attempt for this test was to keep the items simple so everyone could play
15:57:52 - Toba: yes, very interesting
15:58:17 - Otter: slaps jodpar
15:58:23 - we were trying to place more emphasis on building
15:58:30 - Pharaoh: You'll have to balance the requirements so that some/most gambles are available to more casual players, assuming that's the goal for this.
15:58:31 - Gumby: Otter: you have to keep building to keep getting points, should help eliminate quit/expired accounts too
15:59:10 - Otter: ah
15:59:15 - Gumby: what are your thoughts on the reward system?
15:59:28 - ya all the boxes are basically constructed at the same cost level, but it depends on what a person has available
16:00:01 - to build 100 boxes you would need 300 small gems of a specific type that isnt easy to get
16:00:01 - Toba: As a member of the Quit and Expired Civil Liberties Union I must protest.
16:00:13 - Pharaoh: Yeah, cool rewards. Reuses some building types that we didn't have in T2, which is fine (Detonation box).
16:00:18 - so the amount of boxes would be limited to a players time
16:00:40 - Pharaoh: Autopumping would have to be refined. (IOW, does it stack?)
16:00:47 - Toba: explosives muahah
16:00:49 - Gumby: the cogs are pretty expensive based on current costs
16:01:13 - Pharaoh: I'd want to do that one more self-tuning.
16:01:13 - Gumby: it would be nice if it stacked ;)
16:01:49 - Toba: as in stacked on to water pumped by hand?
16:02:02 - Toba: yeah one would hope so
16:02:13 - Pharaoh: Ok, so if it stacked I'd want to say that it's 50/minute for the first one, then 40/min, then 32/min, etc.
16:02:31 - Pharaoh: Or maybe it adds to or multiplies manual pumping, something like that.
16:02:38 - Toba: oh I see you mean more then one upgrade
16:02:38 - Gumby: the only problem i see with having a set of gods with known requirements is that people can stockpile items in advance which might eliminate newer players
16:02:52 - Pharaoh: Actually no...
16:03:10 - Gumby: that was basically what the 2 attribute boards are intended to do on the box requirements
16:03:11 - we were wanting to keep it as ungameable as possible
16:03:25 - you dont know what you need until you have to do it
16:03:38 - Pharaoh: If many of the requirements were things like "a 3-attribute moss" or "a certain incense" then stockpiling is not possible.
16:03:57 - FaceAnkh: *twitches at the mention of 3 attribute moss*
16:04:00 - Pharaoh: And then you put some totally fixed ones in the mix - 5000 bricks - and you get a real sense of gambling.
16:04:20 - mosses are really hard to get in the right attributes it would discourage participation
16:04:30 - and many people just cant make gearboxes
16:04:38 - Hasani: ouch, so you gamble on the gods and make your bid, only to find you need a really tricky incense you may or may not know how to make, interesting....
16:05:07 - Pharaoh: So suppose the three sacrifices are: 200 Bricks, a 3-output gearbox, and 50 reddish paint.
16:06:04 - then the costs would become enormous
16:06:31 - extremely enormous
16:07:08 - indeed
16:07:08 - Gumby: I think there is a lot of resistance to using items like gearboxes, spirits, etc
16:07:11 - Toba: Lindie has a point (see enn)
16:07:18 - Gumby: Some people feel that takes them out of the game
16:07:26 - I would agree
16:07:40 - Pharaoh: Ok, well set the requirements any way you'd like - just a thought on increasing the gambling feel.
16:07:45 - Gumby: I'd be okay with the gamble as the way you've set it up
16:07:48 - Not many complex items that are simple to make :)
16:07:57 - Pharaoh: (And no need to use the 3-of-21 gods idea.)
16:08:08 - yes, you'd need some complex items to make it more of a gamble
16:08:12 - Gumby: just need to set it up with items that everyone can make
16:08:18 - Pharaoh: Sure.
16:08:22 - Lindie: peoples ability to create boxes would be limited by the amount of boxes they can create, which would not be that many as the supplies do add up
16:08:45 - Asheara: but people will complain no matter what if it's a non common item, like 3 cut garnet eyelets, not everyone is a gemcutter
16:08:46 - for that matter, treated boards are hard for many people (judging by the number of cries for help I have had ... ) :)
16:08:49 - but arch has always involved a certain amount of trade. folks can trade for gearboxes, spirits, mosses, etc
16:08:50 - M:Bahaumaut: An idea of a complex item: blacksmith items... but of a # quality minimum?
16:08:50 - Lindie: just do the addition of 100 boxes per god at the amount suggested
16:08:51 - Gumby: yes, at 3 small gems per box, they pile up pretty fast
16:09:02 - Gumby: the box cost is intended to be the bottleneck
16:09:07 - Lindie: that would be 2100 small gems
16:09:08 - Asheara: and not everyone can make paint
16:09:08 - Pharaoh: Ah, ok.
16:09:14 - Toba: I guess that would make this a good group test
16:09:29 - Hasani: but you can trade for what you cant make...
16:09:39 - Toba: although only 1 passes at a time
16:09:41 - Gumby: that would work out to 1500 small gems per cog
16:09:49 - Lindie: yes you could but supplies are limited in egypt
16:09:56 - Pharaoh: So this sounds maybe like a replacement for Obelisk?
16:10:14 - Gumby: Obelisk or Temple
16:10:19 - Pharaoh: (Since it's sort of a building competition)
16:10:22 - Toba: yes
16:10:40 - Gumby: Several people are unhappy with the oven monopolies of older players :p
16:10:45 - Lindie: i cant envision my being able to make more than 50 boxes per week for each of the gods, more than that would be hard
16:11:05 - you have to make new boxes every week?
16:11:11 - Pharaoh: Ok, I was focusing more on the gambling part, was overlooking the building-competition facet.
16:11:18 - Hasani: but you cant monopolize spirit or gearbox making
16:11:24 - M:Bahaumaut: Personally, I loved the obelisk in both tellings. If you *must* take out that test... will you at least let us build them still?
16:11:47 - Lindie: anyways the point of ka is to put goods in the tomb to sustain your ka until it is joined with the ba to become the ank, that would mean food stuff
16:12:00 - Gumby: the randomness and gambling is just an attempt to make everyone do their own work, not looking at the wiki for a set list
16:12:00 - Lindie: this is based on an actual egyptian belief
16:12:00 - Killling funerary temple would be a good idea, imho... it is not a very interesting test, mostly about having access to said networks of ovens
16:12:14 - Lindie: i dont think your ka would be happy eating gearboxes
16:12:41 - I think Funerary Temple might be better released very early in the Tale.
16:12:53 - Toba: No and angry Kas are not good
16:13:25 - aye, when I chose not to do it when it was released, i gave away my stockpile of 60k+ tiles
16:13:27 - Toba: That's what happend to the real egyptians, they forgot to feed them....
16:13:29 - Lindie: we tried to base a test around an actual egyptian belief
16:13:30 - (Right now I have it as one of the first 4 arch Tests)
16:13:41 - Toba: I like that
16:13:48 - Gumby: The random value of the gods wouldn't be a requirement, was just something to add a little decision making to the process instead of straight building
16:14:02 - (And that's in line with the whole frantic-pace intent.)
16:14:08 - earlier release would make it easier for younger players to pass since the first pass wouldn't require 78k glory
16:14:15 - Right.
16:14:41 - nods
16:16:02 - Gumby: assigning a value to the gods served to force people to make several box types
16:16:15 - Pharaoh: Ok, any other Arch Tests under serious consideration?
16:16:18 - Lindie: and added a little spice to the test
16:16:29 - Gumby: those were the top 2 right now
16:16:54 - Pharaoh: Ok, that brings us to Thought, and to the announcement of ATITD 3 Beta.
16:16:59 - Hasani: i think having a gambling element, however conceived, would be important to distinguish this from other arch tests that are just about who can make it bigger
16:17:13 - Toba: yes
16:17:35 - Asheara: we have 3 tests under consideration
16:17:39 - Toba: and that remind me... why haven't we had any marble obelisks this tale?
16:17:44 - Gumby: we have 4 other tests on the wiki for Arch
16:17:50 - Pharaoh: Yeah, I think you can adjust the relative costs of the boxes and what goes in them, to tune that.
16:17:51 - Lindie: i agree we could perk up the gambling aspect but i dont think it should be done at cost, since the cost is already high enough
16:17:52 - Asheara: i'm biased, my favoite is leaping frog
16:18:16 - Toba: I agree with lindie
16:18:20 - Gumby: Got several comments on people about architect's image, would be a way to motivate the building of pyramids
16:18:47 - Pharaoh: Ok, let me give that one a quick read.
16:19:47 - Toba: wait if you have to build the statue on pyramids that would be very limited pass
16:19:59 - Pharaoh: Well, no paradox to that one - it's a straightforward fixed-goal building Test.
16:20:51 - Pharaoh: And actually, the pyramids themselves would likely be the bottleneck
16:21:10 - Toba: Thats what I'm saying
16:21:21 - Pharaoh: So it's really Tale 1's Test of the People's Pyramid but with a bigger pyramid :)
16:21:28 - M:Bahaumaut: As an idea for pyramids: We have some tests which use pyramids, like Set's tower. Perhaps there's more we can use pyramids for, other than the initial benefits?
16:21:30 - Toba: Even if it did make people want to build more pyramid, you can only get people to work so much
16:21:32 - M:Setheri: According to the current description there can be multiple statues per pyramid
16:21:42 - Asheara: i didn't play t1, sorry
16:22:12 - Toba: build 14 block pyramid pass test
16:22:19 - Toba: or any bigger size
16:22:22 - Lindie: tap tap tap, push push push, nap nap nap
16:22:41 - Pharaoh: Ok, Thought.
16:23:38 - Pharaoh: Is the Thought Oracle present?
16:23:47 - prods Asheara
16:23:57 - Asheara: aye :)
16:24:07 - Toba: That would be Ashea
16:24:07 - Toba: ahseara
16:24:20 - Pharaoh: Which Thought Tests are under consideration?
16:24:44 - Asheara: 3 test choices were considering, i personally like the testof the leaping bullfrog
16:24:50 - Asheara: we're
16:25:54 - Asheara: http://wiki.atitd.net/tale2/Users/Sedelyan/The_Test_Of_The_Leaping_Bullfrog
16:25:54 - Pharaoh: Reading Leaping Bullfrog
16:27:43 - Asheara: so was getting the gearboxes for eht
16:27:45 - Toba: might want to make it blueish insted of blue
16:27:56 - Asheara: ya, add ish to the ends
16:28:03 - Al-Bilal: do we want a thought test with the reqs of an EHT?
16:28:15 - Toba: I don't
16:28:25 - Asheara: http://www.atitd.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8920 for clarification by sed
16:28:40 - Pharaoh: Ok, so this is Empty-Hand like.
16:28:51 - Toba: and that just makes people want to game by using 1 block or no blocks
16:29:38 - Tweetiti: EHT was suppose to be a regional effort
16:29:56 - Tweetiti: but I guess people want their own stuff and not wait for one person to pass to then use the building for their own
16:30:00 - Pharaoh: I suspect these will be fun puzzles, but I think you can simplify it by removing the "number" portion of the square.
16:30:19 - Al-Bilal: everyone always complains about the high cost of Art and Thought buildings. this is our chance to do something about that...
16:30:20 - Asheara: yes emptyhand like and my opinon would replace it (*hated eht more than venery)
16:30:57 - Pharaoh: IOW, you will get *plenty* of complexity from this design without the increment/decrement component.
16:31:08 - Al-Bilal: I like the EHT puzzles, I don't like the marble reqs ;)
16:31:09 - Cappu: but EHT have the problem of being easily solvable with a small program
16:31:28 - Hasani: some of us don't use programs to solve puzzles
16:31:41 - Cappu: Nor do I, but it's a problem nevertheless
16:31:43 - Hasani: but yes, the high costs kept me from buliding thought puzzles
16:32:05 - Hasani: i didnt get involved in thought until last several weeks of the telling, as a result
16:32:08 - Pharaoh: Remember that the whole idea of the Thought Discipline is that you're playing game-designer. You're trying to create puzzles that *people8 find pleasingly challenging.
16:32:15 - Al-Bilal: if people want to use EHT solving programs, what's the problem with that? you only get focus points for solving puzzles :)
16:32:49 - Pharaoh: Thought is very much related to Art in that sense.
16:33:11 - Asheara: that's why i feel this is the one that will get more participants
16:33:33 - Asheara: though the other 2 have merits as well
16:33:56 - Cappu: The knowldge one is *toally* different from anything else in thought
16:34:11 - Asheara: aye but requires at of running aruund
16:34:37 - Pharaoh: So in summary, I think it's a solid Test, technically feasible, I'd suggest removing the numerical component to the squares, but that's up to the Oracle.
16:34:51 - Pharaoh: Which other Thought Tests are under consideration?
16:34:59 - Asheara: all 3 are
16:35:10 - Asheara: http://wiki.atitd.net/tale2/Users/ShanVizen/The_Test_Of_Knowledge
16:35:23 - Asheara: http://wiki.atitd.net/tale2/Users/MarvL/The_Test_Of_The_Whirlpools
16:35:26 - Pharaoh: Ok, reading Test of Knowledge.
16:37:48 - Pharaoh: Ok, I have some problems with this Test.
16:38:14 - Asheara: message from sedelyan: "The point of the whole 'numeric increment/decrement' thing would be to add a different style of possible pussle, where the playercould try and find the most effective way to turn all numbers to 9"
16:38:22 - Pharaoh: First off, it's not at all Thought-like - you're not challenging your fellow Egyptians.
16:38:55 - Asheara: *puzzle
16:39:46 - Pharaoh: Also, the reward is sort of a black hole - it specifies that the Libraries contain hints about the game...
16:40:13 - Pharaoh: And it would be very disapointing to pass a Test and get the same hint that someone else has already gotten.
16:41:07 - Toba: those hints would be added to the wiki pretty quickly too I would think
16:41:09 - Pharaoh: So that means that I'd have to somehow assure that there would be more rewards than there would ever be people passing the Test.
16:41:22 - Asheara: aye
16:41:29 - Pharaoh: I don't see a way to automate that.
16:41:45 - Pharaoh: So that whole part of the Test is not technically doable.
16:42:11 - Asheara: ok what abut the test of the whirlpools?
16:42:18 - Toba: whirlpool sounds like it would be hard to code too
16:42:18 - Cappu: Besides, I think that aspect of the test would take away something quite central for a lot of us... the researching part of playing atitd
16:42:23 - Pharaoh: Reading Test of Whirlpools now.
16:43:03 - Toba: if whirlpool has to be in rale time that would be hard with teppy time and server lag
16:43:11 - Toba: real time*
16:43:54 - Cappu: And kill people on poor connections
16:44:00 - Toba: yes
16:44:03 - Cappu: Some people just have a lot of lag (not me, thank Ra )
16:44:28 - Toba: I'm usueally ok, but some of my guild mates won't even come in camp because of lag :)
16:45:10 - Otter: better designed camps needed
16:45:12 - Pharaoh: Ok, this is a very ambitious Test...
16:45:13 - Toba: this test sounds about as hard to do as a first person shooter in this game
16:45:33 - Cappu: Test of Unreal Tournament ;)
16:45:37 - Pharaoh: First off, I don't think I could do a good job rendering the whirlpools
16:45:40 - Hasani: with a very heavy emphasis on body skills
16:45:51 - Toba: Indeed otter, but we had no idea how compounds would affect things
16:46:32 - Pharaoh: What this Test is all about is chaos theory, where a small change in your position at time t1 leads to a large change in your position at time t2.
16:46:49 - Toba: you could do that actually, have a game in UT, report scores back to ATITD for passing
16:47:13 - Otter: UT?
16:47:21 - Asheara: unreal tournament
16:47:32 - Toba: a first person shooter game
16:47:39 - Otter: ty
16:48:33 - Pharaoh: So this is really implementing a twitch game using an engine that never trusts the client, so I think that is proveably impossible.
16:48:34 - Asheara: not doable then?
16:48:51 - Pharaoh: No, not doable.
16:48:57 - Asheara: ok that mens the test is chosen then
16:48:58 - Toba: Pharaoh wouldn't the test be impossible because of the real time aspect?
16:49:00 - Asheara: means
16:49:26 - Toba: sounds like it
16:49:38 - Toba: leap frog sounds like a nice game anyway
16:49:50 - Pharaoh: We can do real-time stuff in a limited way...
16:50:09 - Toba: yeah... we call it teppy time :P
16:50:14 - Pharaoh: Glassblowing and charcoal hearths are both realtime.
16:50:18 - JemGirl: going afk for lunch
16:50:23 - Asheara: ok i'll redo the con site today with the test added
16:50:43 - Toba: Asheara can you add me to the guild yet?
16:50:54 - Pharaoh: But the resolution is 1-second per "move"
16:50:54 - Asheara: oedipe's fate?
16:51:10 - Hasani: toba, have you applied? i checked for membership apps this morning
16:51:10 - Toba: yes
16:51:24 - Toba: Yes I believe so
16:51:50 - Toba: days ago
16:52:00 - Pharaoh: A true realtime game would require a different server architecture, and would inherently be hackable.
16:52:09 - Hasani: hmm, there were none this am
16:52:25 - Pharaoh: (Aim-bots on Quake are an example of what I consider hackable.)
16:52:25 - Toba: maybe someone deleted it
16:52:31 - Zintwana: Back for a bit
16:52:43 - Toba: and we all know how people love to cheat at thought
16:52:45 - Zintwana: I hear the mechanism of finding oyster beds was to be discussed?
16:52:50 - Asheara: so all that's stoping us from building the thought monument is bodies and 3 gemtypes
16:52:56 - Pharaoh: Ah, WB Zintwana.
16:53:05 - Al-Bilal: how many KT still needed ash?
16:53:09 - Asheara: 12
16:53:23 - Pharaoh: Yes, everything about Oyster-Catcher seems doable..
16:53:28 - Asheara: 13 rings, 10 lotus
16:53:40 - Pharaoh: I was unclear on the whole notion of how you find the Oyster bed to start with though.
16:54:02 - Zintwana: well part of the puzzle would be to find workable grids
16:54:46 - Zintwana: if you take a grid of size y*y which would give a correspionding sized pearl
16:54:56 - Zintwana: so the large the grid the larger the pearl
16:55:05 - Zintwana: the catch is the placement of dead cells
16:55:17 - Zintwana: random dead cells would be placed
16:55:22 - Pharaoh: Are you assuming that all of Egypt is one giant grid, and then you just change that?
16:55:34 - Zintwana: when I say random they would be more frequently found nearest the shore
16:55:42 - Zintwana: this limits the number of workable grids
16:55:55 - Otter: na,middle of desert like otters
16:56:01 - Zintwana: well water would be key of course
16:56:04 - Pharaoh: Or like Otters?
16:56:10 - Zintwana: you can't dive where there's no watter
16:56:11 - Zintwana: ;)
16:56:18 - Toba: no not like otters
16:56:22 - Toba: or rats
16:56:31 - Toba: Well you can try zint
16:56:31 - Zintwana: the idea would be to do a series of shallow dives
16:56:38 - Zintwana: this would allow you to map out an area
16:56:58 - Zintwana: finding where the random dead spots are
16:57:07 - Zintwana: a grid with a dead spot will not be solveable
16:57:49 - Zintwana: so finding grids big enough to get rare oysters will be much harder than finding common ones that require smaller grids
16:57:53 - Pharaoh: Ok, I can do that with one restriction...
16:58:00 - Toba: Note we have only about 1 hour to finish up before the Body Monument and someof us haven't eaten yet.
16:58:12 - Pharaoh: The oyster beds would change once per hour...
16:58:44 - Pharaoh: What I'd do is create an invisible object the first time you did a dive in an area.
16:59:41 - Pharaoh: And then your dives would actually be manipulating that invisible object.
16:59:53 - Zintwana: the actual mechanism I've described is only a way I saw of doing it - I know theres probably a much better mechanism and hopefully thats something you could tinker with :)
17:00:16 - Pharaoh: And then if nobody "touched" (dived near) it for an hour, it would go away.
17:00:19 - Zintwana: that sounds good
17:00:38 - Zintwana: so as you dive in certain areas the oyster would be drawn nearer
17:00:41 - Toba: sounds interesting,in an invisible sort of way
17:00:42 - Zintwana: in others pushed away?
17:00:46 - Pharaoh: Ok, so I think Oyster Catcher is a good Test then.
17:00:46 - Otter: invisions people throwing themselves in water like lemmings
17:01:04 - Zintwana: thanks
17:01:04 - Zintwana: :)
17:01:34 - Pharaoh: Ok, so I think that does it for Test discussions for now. Lots of careful thought in these.
17:01:51 - Otter: submerge submerge
17:02:12 - Pharaoh: Some really clever/fun ones...
17:02:26 - Lindie: when is the beta going to start?
17:02:31 - Toba: hmm yes, we need subs insted of ferries
17:02:42 - lol
17:02:44 - Pharaoh: Stioll need to review leadership when the Oracle is around.
17:02:51 - Pharaoh: Ok, so ATITD Beta...
17:02:55 - Pharaoh: ATITD 3 Beta.
17:03:12 - Toba: Kaayru is here now (oracle of leadership)
17:03:17 - Hasani: kaayru has arrived
17:03:25 - kaayru: *waves*
17:03:27 - Toba: However are time is getting limited
17:03:36 - Pharaoh: Kaayru, you're killing everyone :)
17:03:54 - Asheara: *hugs kaa
17:03:56 - Tweetiti: lol
17:03:58 - kaayru: hehe
17:04:12 - Toba: nah he can't help it
17:04:13 - Pharaoh: Let's talk about Beta, then I'll chat about Leadership Tests.
17:04:18 - kaayru: ok
17:04:21 - Toba: yes
17:04:40 - Jodpar: sounds good
17:04:43 - Pharaoh: Ok, so FilePlanet is doing this with us, which is awesome*awesome*awesome.
17:04:59 - Toba: again? nice
17:05:00 - Otter: uh oh
17:05:25 - Toba: *shudders at the thought of all those noobs* j/k
17:05:34 - Pharaoh: So I expect Beta to be crazy with new people.
17:05:42 - Toba: ugh
17:05:46 - Cool :)
17:05:53 - Otter: you were new once
17:06:03 - Al-Bilal: awww, newbs are *fun*
17:06:04 - Otter: I put up with you
17:06:07 - Toba: I'll do my best
17:06:10 - Jodpar: i cant remember when i was new now ;)
17:06:10 - Pharaoh: So this is a huge chance to expand this little club :)
17:06:16 - Toba: I mentored myself tho :)
17:06:35 - Otter: hexi has 2
17:06:42 - Pharaoh: We'll start this Friday, April 28, at Noon.
17:06:46 - Otter: teppy needs to flag them
17:06:54 - Hasani: wow, cool
17:06:56 - Al-Bilal: flog them?
17:06:57 - Pharaoh: That's approximately when the Fileplanet page will go up.
17:07:15 - Cappu: hooooorrraaay!
17:07:26 - Toba: So your going to pay mentor in cash this time right? :P
17:07:37 - Toba: mentors*
17:07:42 - Pharaoh: But the servers will go up exactly at noon; they won't wait for the FP page to go up if that one is a bit lagged.
17:07:55 - Otter: hug
17:08:45 - F:LadyGrim: do we need to go though file planet to try beta also?
17:09:05 - Pharaoh: No.
17:09:16 - Lindie: oops
17:09:27 - Asheara: thought they were using a patronage one
17:09:31 - You already have the updated client...
17:09:37 - kaayru: good idea
17:09:49 - Toba: BTW pharaoh, I have a petition on me that you need to look at regarding takeskot next tale
17:09:51 - Servers have been updated as needed for ATITD 3, as of about a week ago.
17:10:15 - That's Noon EST (GMT-0500).
17:10:28 - Toba: Yes, jemgirl will have patronage waypoint
17:10:34 - Toba: thanks jodpar
17:10:45 - Toba: and everyone else have a look at my petitions too :)
17:10:58 - ATITD 2 will continue concurrently with ATITD 3 Beta.
17:11:09 - for how long?
17:11:33 - Toba: Takeskot is really a great game but it needs to have it's score system fixed
17:11:37 - Toba: thanks all
17:12:15 - Gharib is expected to die on May 20.
17:12:27 - Zintwana: ooh
17:12:36 - Toba: and there will be a takeskot tournament after the raising of the body monument
17:12:36 - Zintwana: do we have a funeral party?!
17:12:46 - amazing what modern medicine can predict nowadays ;)
17:12:50 - Hasani: i enjoy takeskot, but the scoring system makes it almost untenable to play
17:12:52 - Otter: irish wake?
17:13:01 - We will have Amnesty that weekend.
17:13:13 - Zintwana: sounds like drinking might be involved otter - you'll be in your element ;)
17:13:25 - Otter: ...
17:13:32 - Otter: pounce
17:13:46 - Toba: lol
17:13:52 - Asheara: will beat codes be needed?
17:13:55 - Asheara: beta
17:14:01 - Toba: lol
17:14:05 - And then the servers will be up through Wednesday, May 24.
17:14:05 - Toba: beat codes
17:14:17 - Toba: hmm I think I like the sound of that
17:14:22 - Toba: keep the noobs in line
17:14:31 - Last chance to say goodbye. There will be a few days when neither ATITD 2 or ATITD 3 runs.
17:14:47 - Toba: grrr
17:15:10 - And then, assuming all goes smoothly with the Beta, ATITD 3 will launch on Saturday, May 27, at Noon EST (GMT-0500).
17:15:42 - so win or lose, monuments or none, t2 ends may 24?
17:16:15 - good Ill be back
17:16:26 - Yes, though May 20th is the final chance to complete a Monument.
17:16:44 - getter done
17:16:47 - cos gharib is going to snuff it :'(
17:17:02 - he better drink some juice
17:17:07 - lol
17:17:25 - We need to but him on a cabbage juice IV
17:17:31 - FaceAnkh: hope the moss behaves then :S
17:17:37 - What I hope to accomplish in Beta is tuning...
17:18:02 - hopes for tuned rats ;)
17:18:13 - bigger feet?
17:18:15 - So during Beta, I will nerf things, make them harder in the middle, change requirements.
17:18:23 - Asheara: hope the kings tombs and rings appear by then
17:18:26 - The idea is to tune the gam efor a pretty frantic pace.
17:19:07 - sigh
17:19:23 - And during beta, I will ask that everyone frequently tell me how the game "feels" right now...
17:19:24 - t3 length expectations on your part? < 1 year?
17:19:39 - Zintwana: Can I ask one quick Question. There has been a video circulating recently from a French Computer Game show which shows some early T3 screen shots. One of the most interesting aspects is a certain airship.... Now either you are having a late Aprils fools or it's an actual game element - I'd be facinated to hear more......
17:19:39 - argh, no predictions!!! >.<
17:19:54 - JemGirl: back
17:19:59 - So, "Lots to do", "I'm getting overwhelmed", "I only have one thing I can do and it's not something I like", that sort of thing.
17:20:49 - I think I'm an ok game designer, but a very poor fortune teller, so no predictions on T3 length :)
17:21:38 - Pharaoh: That is not a delayed April Fools day prank.
17:21:47 - Zintwana: oooh
17:21:56 - ooooooooooh, even
17:21:57 - Zintwana: I take it we'll ahve to wait?
17:22:02 - Zintwana: have*
17:22:07 - nooooooooooooooooo
17:22:10 - Asheara: i have a monument question....
17:22:12 - dies of excitement of anticipation
17:22:30 - Asheara: are the numbers the same as T1? 127 required?
17:23:00 - Pharaoh: They're only partially coded - you can't build them yet, but you can fly them. One of the most *fun* things I've coded recently because I really like flying them around.
17:23:18 - JemGirl: cool
17:23:19 - Toba: flying? wow
17:23:29 - Al-Bilal: but no ridable camels still? :PP
17:23:39 - M:Bahaumaut: That's all we need. Teppy riding around Egypt in an airship, raiding camel pens for bomb ammo...
17:23:45 - he blabbed!
17:23:47 - thought there was no z axis in atitd
17:23:49 - drat
17:24:01 - Gumby: and people said the batteries in the djed pillar were too far fetched ;)
17:24:35 - ahha a new way to catch falcons - great idea Teppy
17:24:36 - :)
17:24:43 - Lindie: who needs rideable camels when you can just fly there "Camel Egypt Fly the friendly skies"
17:24:46 - Al-Bilal: ash: the numbers were the same for the Body monument
17:25:01 - Jodpar: Will we see the return of the varying obelisk types in T3?
17:25:06 - Hasani: yes, perhaps next tale the rate of thought passes can be increased somehow
17:25:08 - Yes.
17:25:27 - In fact, I've done a bunch of tweeks to Test of the Obelisk...
17:25:33 - Asheara: i was told passing numbers may be based on participation as a percentage
17:25:37 - Seven kinds of Obelisk, all unlockable by players...
17:25:48 - Each with 3 different graphics.
17:25:55 - i loved the different obe's
17:25:57 - will we get a tech tree to know what to aim for
17:25:58 - Toba: that would be cool
17:26:01 - And some really beautiful graphics.
17:26:01 - or will it be hit and miss?
17:26:05 - Hasani: and i'm receiving tells about the rate of art passes also
17:26:26 - Asheara: like if 100 people participate, 5 would pass, 20 participate, 1 would pass etc
17:26:40 - Toba: I like that idea
17:26:41 - YES ASH, that would be awsome :)
17:26:53 - That could revive Art
17:26:54 - Toba: then the only limit is interest in the tests
17:27:01 - I haven't made that change yet; it's on my list of things I will probably do during Beta.
17:27:09 - wow
17:27:12 - It's a good change.
17:27:16 - sounds like a plan
17:27:16 - WEEEEE :D
17:27:45 - Hasani: that would be wonderful if that kind of change could be implemented
17:27:45 - Toba: becuase the way we are going, it seems like it will only get harder to fill the monuments
17:27:50 - going back to all tech being available at start ... - will we get access to a tech tree to know that we must open x and y to get z?
17:27:51 - Toba: from tale to tale
17:28:13 - The one thing I haven't figured out yet is how to not create a culture of building mass numbers of 1-click (whatever) in order to pump up the pass rate.
17:28:16 - Hasani: yes, and both art and thought really need that
17:28:51 - well with peer review that kind of helps eliminate that no?
17:28:55 - But the Art and Thought pass code is now centralized, so if I can solve that problem, it's not such a big change to make.
17:29:07 - Pharaoh, maybe have a minimium score to be considered part of the pool?
17:29:19 - ahh nice idea Toba
17:29:29 - although i see a flaw
17:29:31 - Well, one idea is counting the number of *people* participating, rather than counting the objects.
17:29:42 - I think all puzzles start at 400 no?
17:30:02 - So if one person builds 3 Scholar's Gemcutting Tables, then that only counts as one.
17:30:06 - or maybe like hegemon, it goes by the number that have passed
17:30:09 - That would work, I think
17:30:12 - sounds ideal
17:30:39 - Quite an Oracle party we have here...
17:30:50 - 18 people.
17:30:58 - Yes let's all line up for pictures
17:31:05 - will there be a mechanism in place to avoid gaming occuring at Beetle gardens - peer review style?
17:31:08 - Someone does need to take screenshots.
17:31:08 - couple oracles didn't show up.............peers at sabuli...
17:31:25 - peers at macphisto and kalar...
17:31:25 - I haven't made any changes to Beetles scoring.
17:32:03 - hmm so I guess that will give something for our leaders to worry about
17:32:08 - Not sure gambling is a huge problem in beetles world, actually
17:32:16 - Beetles and Pyro each have their own scoring system, not PeerReview.
17:32:16 - how about pyro?
17:32:26 - Gumby: Does the summary text or full text of the monument carry over to the next tale?
17:32:39 - good question
17:32:42 - Also Sphinx (I will probably rewrite that, but that will be the last Test as always.)
17:32:45 - pyro was hit hard by the mining system... I think if mining is easier, pyro would fare better
17:33:08 - probably
17:33:15 - The prospecting, mining, smelting, and alloy systems are all totally new.
17:33:27 - I've never understood why pyro is so expensive. it's the most fun thing in the game to watch, it should be easy to participate in...
17:33:34 - On the sphinx topic I still have riddles at 6/7 rating that have been dormant in pool for over 1 month
17:34:19 - something not quite right there
17:34:28 - M:Bahaumaut: Hrm... a Tech tree... personally, I would like *not* knowing the tree itself. And maybe making some of the 'higher' branches requiring the previous techs to be unlocked in multiple Uni's.
17:34:40 - The tech-tree unveils itself a bit at a time...
17:34:51 - ah good
17:35:00 - so you WILL know what next to aim for
17:35:07 - When you complete research on something, new research (usually) opens up.
17:35:17 - Also, a change I made just last week...
17:35:18 - will any techs require other techs to be opened at each region
17:35:36 - When you reach a new level (by completing Principles of the Acrobat, for instance)...
17:36:10 - It shows you what new stuff you can do this level (both Tests and opened Techs), and what you'll be able to do next level.
17:36:34 - And it searches for up to 3 levels ahead if there's no new stuff next level.)
17:36:45 - M:Setheri: so the tree shows what you need to unlock a certain tech but not what the tech you will unlock is?
17:37:26 - Does the summary text or the full text of the monument carry over to the next tale?
17:37:31 - Right. Doesn't show what techs will be researchable more than 1 ahead.
17:37:40 - Gumby: Both
17:37:47 - M:Setheri: Pharaoh i have one question about skills for this tale:When will the only inactive mysterious altar become useable?
17:38:01 - That's confidential.
17:38:16 - and setna is MIA lol
17:38:26 - Then the arch monument has a problem that should be unique to that discipline, i'll bother you after this chat. ;)
17:38:37 - Ok
17:39:18 - Ok, so I'm gonna wrap things up for today...
17:39:47 - JemGirl: Hugs Kalar
17:39:49 - Someone said there's a problem (bug?) with the Arch monument; if so, DevCall - I'll stick around for a bit.
17:41:01 - If you have thoughts on doing our player gathering at Harbin Hot Springs (http://www.harbin.org) rather than Pittsburgh, send me a /tell or an email.
17:41:05 - Toba: Can we all get lined up for pictures?
17:41:22 - cant afford cal
17:42:11 - Toba: line up on both sides of pharaoh
17:42:19 - Esme: that would require coordination ...isnt that against the rules?
17:42:22 - Zintwana: LINE UP FOR PICS!
17:42:44 - Zintwana: FA face front
17:42:44 - Zintwana: :)
17:42:51 - Al-Bilal: gotta all face the same way ;D
17:42:53 - Zintwana: don't face ankh
17:42:55 - Zintwana: graon...
17:42:59 - Zintwana: groan*
17:43:00 - Toba: lol
17:43:05 - Toba: ROFL
17:43:09 - JemGirl: need Pharoaho to trun around
17:43:17 - Zintwana: kkayru face front
17:43:19 - Zintwana: hehe
17:43:35 - Zintwana: tweetitit?
17:43:58 - Toba: Face the same way as pharaoh
17:44:13 - Toba: west side needs to line up more
17:44:19 - Zintwana: we want otter in pic too
17:44:19 - Zintwana: :)
17:44:23 - Al-Bilal: everyone say cheese, especially FA ;)
17:44:37 - Asheara: cheese
17:44:55 - FaceAnkh: coffee :D
17:45:02 - Asheara: sabuli coming
17:45:04 - JemGirl: pharoah is turned around
17:45:27 - Psychodelica: I fear we all will need to turn, since I don't see P turning around ....
17:45:31 - Kalar: this is where the rampaging hordes come and effectively lop off egypt's collective head
17:45:39 - FaceAnkh: actually, everyone is likely to see slightly different things due to the way the client works :)
17:45:47 - Toba: gumby do a 180
17:45:48 - JemGirl: thinks we need to jump on him
17:45:59 - Zintwana: if everyon ahs their abck to the old school taht will line everyone up perfectly
17:46:02 - Toba: everyone else is fine on my camera
17:46:11 - Hasani: perfecto!
17:46:13 - FaceAnkh: player orientation only seems to be updated when someone moves, and only if they move a reasonable bit :)
17:46:14 - Zintwana: dang my typings bad
17:46:45 - Zintwana: got the pic
17:46:45 - Zintwana: :)
17:46:46 - Toba: ok I think I got it
17:46:56 - Psychodelica: eek !
17:46:59 - Psychodelica: I closed my eyes, I think
17:47:00 - JemGirl: me wants a pic
17:47:02 - JemGirl: wait
17:47:03 - Hasani: lol
17:47:03 - Psychodelica: can you redo ?
17:47:14 - Toba: we need to get otter over here
17:48:28 - Zintwana: well everyone is standing correctly except toba
17:48:29 - Zintwana: lol
17:48:46 - Toba: I am on my screen
17:48:57 - Cappu: let's go and PARTY!
17:48:58 - Toba: your all standing corrently on my screen
17:49:02 - Zintwana: got it
17:49:04 - Zintwana: :)
17:49:06 - Al-Bilal: body monument time?
17:49:09 - Hasani: groovy
17:49:16 - Toba: Ash move out from behind psy
17:49:28 - JemGirl: k heading over now
17:49:36 - JemGirl: see you guys in min
17:49:41 - JemGirl: will set up wp
17:49:53 - Al-Bilal: cool, cya in a bit jem :D
17:50:03 - Toba: ok got it
17:50:22 - Toba: you may all move freely now, I'll try to post this somewhere later
17:50:41 - Toba: since I'm the only one with everyone facing the rightway :P
17:50:52 - Toba: w00t
17:50:57 - Toba: it's a toga
17:51:09 - Al-Bilal: it's clearly a skirt
17:51:22 - Otter: kilt
17:51:22 - Pharaoh: Gotta run - doing a demo for ATITD 3...
17:51:33 - Pharaoh: We'll do Leadership chat in a day or so.
17:51:36 - Otter: ahhh
17:51:37 - Toba: kaa face my way, I'll take pic of the skirt people
17:51:37 - FaceAnkh: thanks for the chat Teppy :)